What methods do you use to get an injured passenger out of a car?

name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended) made this Freedom of Information request to London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

This request has been closed to new correspondence. Contact us if you think it should be reopened.

The request was successful.

name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

Dear London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade),

What methods do you use to help an injured person out of a car?

What policy do you have on moving and handling for getting a person out of a vehicle?

Do you get back-up paramedic or ambulance or doctor or nurse to assist? Do you immobilise the person with a splint and use a board to get the person out of the car?

What equipment do you deploy?

Thank you very much for your help

Yours sincerely,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

Ms [last name removed],

Thank you for your request for Information. It will be considered under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. I will provide a response promptly and in any case within 20 working days.

Regards

Richard Foreman
Information Access Officer
London Fire Brigade
169 Union Street, London SE1 0LL
T: 020 8555 1200 ext 30401
E: [email address]
 
Visit our website at www.london-fire.gov.uk

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name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

Dear Mr Foreman, London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade),

Thank you very much for this response and I look forward to receiving the information I seek.

My concerns are about Health and Safety of the staff who try to extricate a person from the vehicle/car as well as the person who is injured who is in the car.

A matter of HSE policy on safe Manual Handling and Transfer is germane to this request.

I have asked the Department of Health if there is a National Policy of Manual Handling and Transfer and they have told me there is not. Similarly NHS Direct has told me the same.

To me this is essential to have a National Policy that gives exact and specific guidelines in a whole array of emergency situations.

If there is no national policy then it begs the question of public safety because nobody will have the overall view of how the manual transfer and handling is best done.

I believe that there should be enforceable codes of practice and under the Health and Social Care Bill that the Emergency Services should be given clear guidance and regulatory code of conduct so as to protect both the general public and the personnel of the Emergency Services whether that be the Fire Brigade, the Police, the Ambulance Service, the Coastguard Service, healthcare professionals or whoever else gives emergency care in a professional capacity.

It could also act as very useful public knowledge as to how to get someone out of a vehicle in an emergency who is not an emergency professional.

All in all the education could assist the Health of the Nation.

Thank you very much for your help

Yours sincerely,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

Dear Ms [last name removed]

 

I am writing in  response to your request for information which we
received on 26 October 2011. Your request was considered under the
provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and I can confirm
that we do hold information that meets the parameters of your request. The
information you have requested is contained within a document, entitled:
FRS Manual, Volume 2, Operations, incidents Involving Rescue from Road
Vehicles which is available to order from the TSO, please refer to the
internet for TSO contact details. As such the requested information is
exempt from disclosure by virtue of S21(a)^1 of the FOIA – information
accessible to applicant by other means. S21 FOIA is an absolute exemption
and does not require for us to consider the public interest test.

 

I have provided some generic information (each incident has the potential
to create its own unique circumstances) in turn below:

 

Firefighters are often faced with hazardous situations. Each situation
will be different, with changing hazards and risks, some of which may not
have been faced before. There is a need for a process that recognises the
rapidly changing circumstances of an operational incident. This is the
dynamic risk assessment (DRA) process. DRA involves the continuous
assessment and control of risks in the rapidly changing circumstances of
an operational incident. The overall responsibility for this process
remains with the incident commander (IC). However, every firefighter has
the responsibility and the authority to take immediate action in the
interest of safety and all operational personnel must be capable of
performing the process to ensure the safety of themselves, their
colleagues, the public and the environment.

 

“What methods do you use to help an injured person out of a car?”

 

There are many methods including the creation of space, glass management,
vehicle stabilisation, casualty stabilisation, use of cutting lifting
spreading  tools etc.

 

“What policy do you have on moving and handling for getting a person out
of a vehicle?”

 

London Fire Brigade policy 540 – Manual handling operations procedure,
sets out the actions to be taken within the Authority to control manual
handling activities and applies to all (LFB) Establishments and other
sites where LFB personnel are working, including scenes of fire and rescue
operations.

 

“Do you get back-up paramedic or ambulance or doctor or nurse to assist?”

 

We always take the advice of medically trained personnel on medical
issues. However any need for assistance would be subject to, and result
of, an on going dynamic risk assessment.

 

“Do you immobilise the person with a splint and use a board to get the
person out of the car?”

 

No the LFB do not carry this type of equipment.

 

“What equipment do you deploy?”

 

A wide range of equipment that is carried on appliances such as, cutting
lifting spreading equipment.

 

I trust this concludes your request. However, if you wish to obtain
information on a specific scenario, please give as much detail as possible
and address your query to me.

 

You have the right to ask the Authority to review this response. If you
wish to do so, please set out in writing your reasons for asking and
address them to David Wyatt - Head of Information Management at
[1][email address]

 

You also have the right to ask the Information Commissioner for a decision
as to whether the Authority has dealt with your request in accordance with
the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and/or Data Protection
Act. If you wish to do this, you must first ask the Authority to review
its decision; and then you must apply promptly to the Information
Commissioner at; The Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House,
Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.

 

Thank you for your interest in the London Fire Brigade.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Aidan Bartley

Information Management

Strategy & Performance Department

London Fire Brigade

Direct T: 020 8555 1200 ext 30086

Direct F: 020 7960 3617

E: [2][email address]

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(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)—

(a)information may be reasonably accessible to the applicant even though
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(b)information is to be taken to be reasonably accessible to the applicant
if it is information which the public authority or any other person is
obliged by or under any enactment to communicate (otherwise than by making
the information available for inspection) to members of the public on
request, whether free of charge or on payment.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (1), information which is held by a
public authority and does not fall within subsection (2)(b) is not to be
regarded as reasonably accessible to the applicant merely because the
information is available from the public authority itself on request,
unless the information is made available in accordance with the
authority’s publication scheme and any payment required is specified in,
or determined in accordance with, the scheme.

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References

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1. mailto:[email address]
2. mailto:[email address]
3. http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/
4. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety...
5. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/EmailDiscl...

name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

Tuesday 22 November 2011

Dear Mr Bartley, London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade),

Thank you very much for this timely and authoritative response, and this does help greatly.

I admire the courage of all the firefighters who put their lives at risk to help others to survive, and please convey my thanks to everyone.

Yours sincerely,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

Dear London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade),

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to request an internal review of London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade)'s handling of my FOI request 'What methods do you use to get an injured passenger out of a car?'.

May I ask if you have an actual policy document on manual handling and transfer of getting people out of a car and whether it can be made available to me on this website please, as I am concerned for public safety that you clearly have excellent methods but I have failed to find out how someone in a hospital setting can be extricated from a car because the nurses have said they are not allowed to man-handle any patient out of a car.

Thank you so much - with the Olympics this year, I expect you will be called upon to provide training and may I ask that you could provide a "masterclass app" of best practice showing specifically in real time how to get an injured patient out of the car using perhaps fire-fighting techniques you deploy on a regular basis.

With much gratitude to you and all your brave people who save lives on a daily basis,

With best wishes,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

Campaigner for Liberty, Truth and Justice

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wh...

London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

Ms [first name removed] [last name removed]

 

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your email of 6 February, asking
that I review Mr Bartley’s response to your FOIA request (reference
FOIA1076.1) of 26 October 2011. 

 

Please note, I intend to focus my review on the following:

 

Does the London Fire Brigade have a policy document on manual handling at
vehicle accidents.
If so, please advise whether you are able to disclose it.

 

If I have misunderstood your review request, please contact me to let me
know.

 

I will provide you with my review response promptly and in any case within
20 working days.

 

I note your suggestion about the provision of training in the removal of
casualties from vehicles. The Brigade does not provide such training and
has no plans to provide such training. We would always recommend that the
emergency services are called to vehicle accidents and that casualties are
removed by trained fire and rescue service or ambulance personnel.

 

David Wyatt
Head of Information Management & Performance
Strategy & Performance Department
London Fire Brigade
169 Union Street, London SE1 0LL
T: 020 8555 1200 ext 30352
M: 07775 826 404
E: [1][email address]

 

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name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

Dear Mr Wyatt, London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade),

"I note your suggestion about the provision of training in the removal of casualties from vehicles. The Brigade does not provide such training and has no plans to provide such training. We would always recommend that the emergency services are called to vehicle accidents and that casualties are
removed by trained fire and rescue service or ambulance personnel."

I wish to request an internal review that includes this as well as a policy that can be disclosed to the public via this charity website.

I find it most worrisome that you do not have the facility to remove people from vehicles because are you not also the people who surely have policies about cutting tops off cars - eg. where there has been a car wrecked and people are trapped inside and the only way to get people out is to use specialist equipment, and, use boards and splints to remove the people, maybe or maybe not with the assistance of medical personnel because in an emergency you may have to remove a person in very short space of time if a car might have a petrol leak and then be in danger of going up in flames, you MUST have automatically an emergency app to show how to get people out of a car and NOT have to wait for OTHER services to turn up - a 2 minutes' delay might be the difference between life and death.

That is why I am asking various authorities across the country as to what is their manual handling and transfer policy as there is no DH national policy and I believe that there should be - hence my campaign.

In view of the fact that "apps" can be so easily created, I had hoped that your authority could come up with one to help ordinary people to help others out of an emergency situation - and using your valuable knowledge you could help to save potentially many more people this way.

That is my campaign.

Thank you so much,

Yours sincerely,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

Campaigner for Liberty, Truth and Justice

London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

Thanks for your email and your further clarifications. Of course, the London Fire Brigade has training for its staff in the removal of casualties from vehicles and we also have policies. As I said, we don't currently provide any advice for members of the public in casualty removal. I will deal with both points as part of my internal review.

David Wyatt
Head of Information Management & Performance
Strategy & Performance Department
London Fire Brigade
169 Union Street, London SE1 0LL
T: 020 8555 1200 ext 30352
M: 07775 826 404
E: [email address]

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name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade)

8 February 2012
Thanks for your email and your further clarifications. Of course, the London Fire Brigade has training for its staff in the removal of casualties from vehicles and we also have policies. As I said, we don't currently provide any advice for members of the public in casualty removal. I will deal with both points as part of my internal review.

David Wyatt

8 February 2012

Dear Mr Wyatt,

I am most grateful to you.

I am sure that the Fire Authority has everything in hand regarding their own training, but what I am petitioning is for your excellence to be disseminated for everyone to copy and learn from "video masterclass apps" so that we can all be trained and through "Wii type training simulators" so that we can all learn vital life-saving skills in an emergency situation.

That is why I have written.

And hope that irrespective of what the situation has been hitherto, what is your proposal for the future as that is what will help to save lives.

Thank you again,

With best wishes,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

Campaigner for Liberty, Truth and Justice

Yours sincerely,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

London Fire Commissioner (London Fire Brigade)

4 Attachments

Dear Ms [last name removed]

 

I am writing in response to your email on 6 February 2012 requesting a
review of our response to your request for information (our ref:
FOIA1076.1) originally received on 26 October 2011.

 

I have reviewed our response dated 22 November 2011 and I am satisfied
that you were provided with full response. You originally asked for “an
actual policy document on manual handling and transfer of getting people
out of a car” and you were advised about the Brigade’s manual handling
policy (no 540) and other information. I therefore consider the matter
closed.

 

You then wrote to us on 6 February 2012 requesting an internal review
asking “what methods do you use to get an injured passenger out of a
car?”. You also asked “if you have an actual policy document on manual
handling and transfer of getting people out of a car and whether it can be
made available…”. For simplicity I have treated this part of your
correspondence as a separate request for information which we have
considered under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000
(FOIA). I can confirm that we do not have a specific policy on removal of
casualties from a car, etc. in a road traffic accident. There is the
general policy (no 540) about Manual Handling which was mentioned in Mr
Bartley original response and which is now attached. 

 

However, in addition to Policy 540, I am pleased to provide the following
information specific information about the handling of casualties in road
traffic collisions:

 

·         Manual Handling Note 4 Casualty Handling at Special Service
Incidents*

·         Firefighter Development Programme – Stage 1 Module: 4 Session
code: M4.41 Title: Road traffic collisions – casualty care.

·         Firefighter Development Programme – Stage 1 Module: 4 Session
code: M4.42 Title: Road traffic collisions – procedures.

You should note that information contained in the Guidance Note 4 relating
to manual handling of casualties is consistent with that contained in the
Development Programme documents. As with all guidance, timely revision
will be required – e.g., changes to legal references, terminology,
improvements in technology, etc., which are addressed through the
Brigade’s publishing schedules and manually relayed in the interim, during
skills acquisition and station based training where required.

 

On 7 February 2012 you wrote to me again, quoting from my acknowledgement
sent to you on that date in which I said: "I note your suggestion about
the provision of training in the removal of casualties from vehicles. The
Brigade does not provide such training and has no plans to provide such
training. We would always recommend that the emergency services are called
to vehicle accidents and that casualties are removed by trained fire and
rescue service or ambulance personnel." You then asked; “I wish to request
an internal review that includes this as well as a policy that can be
disclosed to the public via this charity website”.

 

I consider there is no review to be undertaken under information rights
law in respect of a simple factual statement. We do not hold information
on the subject and, as a matter of policy, I have provided you with the
Brigade’s view that we have no plans to create the training you suggest. I
note your view that we “… must have automatically an emergency app to show
how to get people out of a car and not have to wait for other services…”
but there is no proposal to create or provide such an “app” at the present
time. I can only reiterate that we would always recommend that the
emergency services are called to vehicle accidents and that casualties are
removed by trained fire and rescue service or ambulance personnel.

 

I consider that my response to you dated 8 February 2012 and the
information in this response addresses the issues you raised. You then
wrote to me again on 8 February 2012; “…petitioning for your excellence to
be disseminated for everyone to copy and learn from “video masterclass
apps” so that we can all be trained and through “Wii type of training
simulators” so that we can all learn vital life saving skills in a
emergency situation”.

 

I can only refer you to my response above. I would also add that whilst
the London Fire Brigade has a duty, under the Fire and Rescue Services Act
2004 (S8), to rescue people in the event of road traffic accidents, we are
not the lead agency in London for road safety which rests with Transport
for London and the London borough councils. We do not believe that we have
a lead role in providing road safety advice or advice about the removal of
casualties, but are happy to work as partners with other agencies.

 

I remind you of Mr Bartley’s initial response to your request for
information where it was explained to you that you can find guidance
within the  FRS Manual, volume 2, Operations, incidents Involving Rescue
from Road Vehicles, which is available to order from the TSO. In a spirit
of helpfulness, I have enclosed below the contact details for your
convenience:

 

TSO information

The ISBN for this volume of the Fire and Rescue Service Manual is
0-11-341305-X and you can

Order online: www.tsoshop.co.uk

Mail, telephone, Fax and E Mail:

TSO, PO Box 29, Norwich, NR3 1GN

Telephone orders/General enquiries 0870 600 5522

Fax orders; 0870 600 5533

E Mail; [email address]

Telephone 0870 2400 3701

 

TSO Shops

123 Kingsway,London,WC2B 6PQ

0207 242 6393; Fax 0207 242 6394

 

16 Arthur Street, Belfast, BT14 4GD

0289 023 8451;Fax 0289 023 5401

 

71 Lothian Road,Edinburgh,EH3 9AZ

0870 606 5566; Fax 0870 606 5588

 

You may, should you wish to, make an appointment to view the said document
at the LFB library, please contact our Library Manager who is happy to
allow access to our library’s resources by appointment. The Library
Manager is Michelle McHugh and she can be contacted on 020 8555 1200
x30427 or by email [1][email address] .

 

You have the right to ask the Information Commissioner for a decision as
to whether the Authority has dealt with your request in accordance with
the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and/or Data Protection
Act. If you wish to do this you must apply promptly to the Information
Commissioner at Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.

 

 

David Wyatt
Head of Information Management & Performance
Strategy & Performance Department
London Fire Brigade
169 Union Street, London SE1 0LL
T: 020 8555 1200 ext 30352
M: 07775 826 404
E: [2][email address]

 

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References

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2. mailto:[email address]
mailto:[email address]
3. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety...
4. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/EmailDiscl...

name removed 23 Oct 2012 (Account suspended)

29 February 2012

Dear Mr Wyatt, London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (London Fire Brigade), and Mr Turner MP for the Isle of Wight

I am most grateful to you for providing this information which as you state is in the spirit of kindness.

Thank you so much for this kindness, and may you continue to provide help and support and compassion and saving lives,

With best wishes,

[first name removed] [last name removed]

Campaigner for legal reform, liberty, truth and justice

Yours faithfully,

[first name removed] [last name removed]