Vehicle use on Unclassified Roads
Dear Powys County Council,
I have had to resort to an FOI here due to my requests not being answered elsewhere.
I must also highlight here is nothing in legal legislation that draws a line between 'surfaced' and 'unsurfaced' roads
My request is as follows
1. Please provide a copy of the chart/table previously used by Powys Highways to respond to public enquirers regarding public rights on highways. The chart demonstrated clearly that unclassified roads can be used by vehicles
2. Please confirm who, how and when it was decided to stop using the chart
3. Please provide the documents that record any changes to the statements made in the chart requested in the first question
4. Please set out the change in law that would support any changes in policy regarding unclassified roads since Powys stopped using the chart
5. If there has been 'NO' policy change please confirm this
Yours faithfully,
Tristan Craddock
Cyfarwyddwr Strategol: Rheoli Gwybodaeth/
Adnoddau
Information Compliance
Strategic Director: Resources
Neuadd Y Sir / County Hall
David Powell
Spa Road East
Llandrindod Wells
Powys LD1 5LG
Mr Craddock If calling please ask for / Os yn galw
gofynnwch am
Tel / Ffôn: 01597 82 7543
Fax / Ffacs: 01597 82 6215
Email/Llythyru electronig:
[1][Powys County Council request email]
Our ref / Ein cyf: 7008
Date / Dyddiad: 14 November 2016
Request Accepted
FREEDOM of INFORMATION ACT 2000
Reference No: 7008
Dear Mr Craddock,
Thank you for your request for information, received at this office on
14/11/2016, in which you requested details of the following:
Vehicle Use on Unclassified Roads
The above is a summary of your request. The full details of the
information sought is provided to the officer to whom the request is
tasked.
Your request will now be considered and you will receive a response within
the statutory timescale of 20 working days as defined by the Act, subject
to the information not being exempt or containing a reference to a third
party. In some circumstances Powys County Council may be unable to achieve
this deadline. If this is likely you will be informed and given a revised
time-scale at the earliest opportunity.
There may be a fee payable for the retrieval, collation and provision of
the information you request. If this is the case you will be informed and
the 20 working day timescale will be suspended until we receive payment
from you. If you choose not to make a payment then your request will
remain unanswered.
Some requests may also require either full or partial transference to
another public authority in order to answer your query in the fullest
possible way. Again, you will be informed if this is the case.
The due date for responding to this request for information is 12/12/2016.
Should you need to discuss this further please contact the officer dealing
with your request as identified at the bottom of this email by contacting
Information Management on 01597 827543.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in
Powys County Council.
Yours sincerely,
Information Compliance Team
References
Visible links
1. mailto:[Powys County Council request email]
Cyfarwyddwr Strategol: Rheoli Gwybodaeth/
Adnoddau
Information Compliance
Strategic Director: Resources
Neuadd Y Sir / County Hall
David Powell
Spa Road East
Llandrindod Wells
Powys LD1 5LG
If calling please ask for / Os yn galw
gofynnwch am
Tel / Ffôn: 01597 82 7543
Fax / Ffacs: 01597 82 6215
Email/Llythyru electronig:
[1][Powys County Council request email]
Our ref / Ein cyf: F2016-7008
Date / Dyddiad: 01/02/17
Reference No: F2016-7008
Dear Mr Craddock
Thank you for your request for information dated 14/11/17 concerning
Vehicle use on Unclassified Roads
This is to inform you that your request has been considered and I can
provide the following response:
The Request:
I must also highlight here is nothing in legal legislation that draws a
line between 'surfaced' and 'unsurfaced' roads
My request is as follows
1. Please provide a copy of the chart/table previously used by
Powys Highways to respond to public enquirers regarding public rights on
highways. The chart demonstrated clearly that unclassified roads can be
used by vehicles
A copy of the chart that we believe is being referred to is attached.
2. Please confirm who, how and when it was decided to stop
using the chart
The copy attached was found in a general file with no supporting
evidence. We have been unable to find anything to indicate that the chart
was ever formally approved for use or formally withdrawn from use. Its
status is therefore as an uncontrolled document distributed to recipients
who are not required to be kept up-to-date if the document changes.
An officer recalls the chart and believes it was produced after 1996 but
was only in limited circulation for a short period. Attached is legal
position that was confirmed by the DETR letter of 24/08/1998 and
subsequent confirmation in Wales by the Welsh Office on 18/11/1998.
3. Please provide the documents that record any changes to the
statements made in the chart requested in the first question
No evidence has been found to indicate that the document was formally
issued or withdrawn.
4. Please set out the change in law that would support any
changes in policy regarding unclassified roads since Powys stopped using
the chart
The document produced is an uncontrolled document. Only the courts can
give an authoritative interpretation of the law, this is supported by the
statement in the Welsh Office letter of 18/11/1998 (para 2.)
5. If there has been 'NO' policy change please confirm this
We have been unable to evidence that a policy was set in the first
instance and therefore NO policy change can have taken place.
We regret the delay you have experienced with this request. We acknowledge
that Powys County Council has failed in its obligation under the Freedom
of Information Act 2000, to provide you with a response to your request
within the statutory timescale of 20 working days. Please accept our
apologies for this and for any inconvenience this may have caused.
We believe that this request is now complete and shall be closed
immediately. Should any further information be requested regarding this
topic, a separate request will need to be submitted.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in
Powys County Council.
Yours sincerely,
Information Compliance Team
The supply of documents under Freedom of Information does not give the
person or organisation who receives them an automatic right to re-use the
documents in a way that would infringe copyright.
You are free to use any information supplied for your own use, including
for non-commercial research purposes. The information may also be used for
the purposes of news reporting. However, any other type of re-use, for
example, by publishing the information or issuing copies to the public
will require the permission of the copyright owner.
The copyright of most of the information that we provide in response to
Freedom of Information Act requests will be owned by Powys County Council.
The copyright in other information may be owned by another person or
organisation, as indicated in the information itself.
For HMSO Guidance Notes on a range of copyright issues, see the Office of
Public Sector Information(OPSI) website.
[2]http://www.opsi.gov.uk/advice/crown-copy...
If you are dissatisfied with the service you have received in relation to
your request and wish to make a complaint, please contact Information
Management. Our complaints procedure is available on request or on our
website.
If you are still not satisfied following this, you can make an appeal to
the Information Commissioner, who is the statutory regulator. The
Information Commissioner can be contacted at:
Information Commissioner's Office
2nd floor
Churchill House
Churchill way
Cardiff
CF10 2HH
Tel: 029 2067 8400
Email: [3][email address]
[4]www.ico.org.uk
References
Visible links
1. mailto:[Powys County Council request email]
2. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/advice/crown-copy...
3. mailto:[email address]
4. http://www.ico.org.uk/
Dear Freedom of Information Queries (CSP - Generic),
Thank you for producing the table issued by Powys Highways, in writing, in the 1990s, when the public enquired if UCRs in Powys are vehicular.
I have now located a typical covering letter from Powys Highways which can be downloaded here http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?...
I assume you do not wish to imply the Highways Staff at the time were issuing unapproved documents, so it is now confirmed the document was formally issued.
It therefore confirms that at that time PCC Highways considered that they, ( UCRs) , were vehicular.
It was of course the general law of the land in England and Wales for almost two hundred years and not subject to Powys policy or “cabinet approval”.
The 1998 letters you provided in response from DETR and Welsh Office confirm that any DMMO applications cannot rely on such information, but it is clear those letters only apply to DMMO applications, so UCRs without DMMO applications, remain vehicular in 1998.
In fact the DETR letter you provided states: Where a route was, or is currently known by the term UCR but is recorded by the HA on road maps or the list of streets as an all purpose carriageway, then that would seem to be a clear indication that vehicular rights exist over it.
So we have established that UCRs were vehicular in the late 1990s
Certain officers have been claiming for a significant time, that UCRs are not vehicular, so please provide the evidence of changes in the law, Powys policy, cabinet approvals, supporting documents, minutes of the meetings that officers claim took place between Countryside Services and Highways that are necessary for that new policy position that has changed since 1998, all of which was the object of my original request and is necessary to legally change your 1998 position.
If you are unable to provide such documents, then I assume that your pre 1998 table remains valid except for dual status UCRs that would have been affected by the NERC Act.
Yours sincerely,
Tristan Craddock
Chris Marsden left an annotation ()
A second Annotation
This is a subject some elements within PCC seem to want to suppress.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/d...
This was requesting information about the untoward pressure excerpted on one department by another to change the UCR USAGE CHART.
Firstly it was acknowledged by IMU, but then refused (presumably by the department tasked) because it was too costly to provide information on the meetings regarding UCR USAGE.
I reduced the period to the last year, or even the last 3 months.
Then the department tasked(?) changed the tack to using s14(1) to refuse to provide this information, which quite obviously does HAVE WIDE INTEREST BY A SECTION OF THE PUBLIC.
They now apparently insist they will not even acknowledge any requests from me.
Cyfarwyddwr Strategol: Rheoli Gwybodaeth/
Adnoddau
Information Compliance
Strategic Director: Resources
Neuadd Y Sir / County Hall
David Powell
Spa Road East
Llandrindod Wells
Powys LD1 5LG
If calling please ask for / Os yn galw
gofynnwch am
Tel / Ffôn: 01597 82 7543
Fax / Ffacs: 01597 82 6215
Email/Llythyru electronig:
[1][Powys County Council request email]
Our ref / Ein cyf: F2017-0338
Date / Dyddiad: 09/03/17
Request Accepted
FREEDOM of INFORMATION ACT 2000
Reference No: F2017/0338
Dear Mr. Craddock
Thank you for your request for information, received at this office on
08/03/2017, in which you requested details of the following:
Change of Policy Documents
The above is a summary of your request. The full details of the
information sought is provided to the officer to whom the request is
tasked.
Your request will now be considered and you will receive a response within
the statutory timescale of 20 working days as defined by the Act, subject
to the information not being exempt or containing a reference to a third
party. In some circumstances Powys County Council may be unable to achieve
this deadline. If this is likely you will be informed and given a revised
time-scale at the earliest opportunity.
There may be a fee payable for the retrieval, collation and provision of
the information you request. If this is the case you will be informed and
the 20 working day timescale will be suspended until we receive payment
from you. If you choose not to make a payment then your request will
remain unanswered.
Some requests may also require either full or partial transference to
another public authority in order to answer your query in the fullest
possible way. Again, you will be informed if this is the case.
The due date for responding to this request for information is 05/04/2017.
Should you need to discuss this further please contact the Information
Compliance Team on 01597 827543.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in
Powys County Council.
Yours sincerely,
Carl Bryden
Information Compliance Officer
References
Visible links
1. mailto:[Powys County Council request email]
Dale Wyatt left an annotation ()
For the record I was one of the people sent this letter and table in 1995 from Mr R Kinghorn.
Cyfarwyddwr Strategol: Rheoli Gwybodaeth/
Adnoddau
Information Compliance
Strategic Director: Resources
Neuadd Y Sir / County Hall
David Powell
Spa Road East
Llandrindod Wells
Powys LD1 5LG
If calling please ask for / Os yn galw
gofynnwch am
Tel / Ffôn: 01597 82 7543
Fax / Ffacs: 01597 82 6215
Email/Llythyru electronig:
[1][Powys County Council request email]
Our ref / Ein cyf: 0338
Date / Dyddiad: 30/03/17
Reference No: F2017-0338
Dear Mr Craddock
Thank you for your request for information dated 08/03/17 concerning
Vehicle use on Unclassified Roads
This is to inform you that your request has been considered and I can
provide the following response:
The Request:
Thank you for producing the table issued by Powys Highways, in writing,
in the 1990s, when the public enquired if UCRs in Powys are vehicular.
I have now located a typical covering letter from Powys Highways which
can be downloaded here
[2]http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?...
I assume you do not wish to imply the Highways Staff at the time were
issuing unapproved documents, so it is now confirmed the document was
formally issued.
It therefore confirms that at that time PCC Highways considered that
they, ( UCRs) , were vehicular.
It was of course the general law of the land in England and Wales for
almost two hundred years and not subject to Powys policy or “cabinet
approval”.
The 1998 letters you provided in response from DETR and Welsh Office
confirm that any DMMO applications cannot rely on such information, but
it is clear those letters only apply to DMMO applications, so UCRs
without DMMO applications, remain vehicular in 1998.
In fact the DETR letter you provided states: Where a route was, or is
currently known by the term UCR but is recorded by the HA on road maps or
the list of streets as an all-purpose carriageway, then that would seem to
be a clear indication that vehicular rights exist over it.
So we have established that UCRs were vehicular in the late 1990s
Certain officers have been claiming for a significant time, that UCRs are
not vehicular, so please provide the evidence of changes in the law, Powys
policy, cabinet approvals, supporting documents, minutes of the meetings
that officers claim took place between Countryside Services and Highways
that are necessary for that new policy position that has changed since
1998, all of which was the object of my original request and is necessary
to legally change your 1998 position.
If you are unable to provide such documents, then I assume that your pre
1998 table remains valid except for dual status UCRs that would have been
affected by the NERC Act.
The Response:
Please find attached WG Circular in paragraph 5.60 that is also the
position of the Council. This is enforced by the policy that the Council
adopted in 2012, which is also attached on the position of what public
rights subsist on UCRs. The majority of this is contained in paragraph 1.3
“Clarity of Provision”.
This document is in conjunction with Highways, and it is not a policy
solely for the purposes of Countryside Services. The position on UCRs is
already clear from the Council’s perspective. Should the existence of
public rights (any rights not just vehicular) be brought into question,
then it should be evidenced and subject to proper scrutiny which is in
effect a DMMO application.
We believe that this request is now complete and shall be closed
immediately. Should any further information be requested regarding this
topic, a separate request will need to be submitted.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in
Powys County Council.
Yours sincerely,
Information Compliance Team
The supply of documents under Freedom of Information does not give the
person or organisation who receives them an automatic right to re-use the
documents in a way that would infringe copyright.
You are free to use any information supplied for your own use, including
for non-commercial research purposes. The information may also be used for
the purposes of news reporting. However, any other type of re-use, for
example, by publishing the information or issuing copies to the public
will require the permission of the copyright owner.
The copyright of most of the information that we provide in response to
Freedom of Information Act requests will be owned by Powys County Council.
The copyright in other information may be owned by another person or
organisation, as indicated in the information itself.
For HMSO Guidance Notes on a range of copyright issues, see the Office of
Public Sector Information(OPSI) website.
[3]http://www.opsi.gov.uk/advice/crown-copy...
If you are dissatisfied with the service you have received in relation to
your request and wish to make a complaint, please contact Information
Management. Our complaints procedure is available on request or on our
website.
If you are still not satisfied following this, you can make an appeal to
the Information Commissioner, who is the statutory regulator. The
Information Commissioner can be contacted at:
Information Commissioner's Office
2nd floor
Churchill House
Churchill way
Cardiff
CF10 2HH
Tel: 029 2067 8400
Email: [4][email address]
[5]www.ico.org.uk
References
Visible links
1. mailto:[Powys County Council request email]
2. http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?...
3. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/advice/crown-copy...
4. mailto:[email address]
5. http://www.ico.org.uk/
Chris Marsden left an annotation ()
There is little chance of a meeting of minds PCC Countryside Services take a blinkered, intransigent, unsustainable and incorrect view on this matter, in defiance of the facts, and dereliction of their duties.
Between 1953 and 1957 there was a series of communications between Radnorshire County Council and the Ministry of Transport which Powys hold (as I do), for claiming the annual support grant for road mileage. A discrepancy of mileage returns for consecutive years was queried and thoroughly reviewed by RCC, giving the accurate mileage of roads including green lanes open to the public in vehicles. PCC C/S may be accusing RCC of claiming money under false pretences, (without a shred of evidence), but the presumption of regularity is indisputable.
Further, a letter from the DETR, signed by Martin Steer dated 30/9/98 states, my emphasis:-
Where a route ONCE WAS, or IS CURRENTLY known by the term "unclassified county road", but is recorded by a highway authority on road maps or the list of streets as an all-purpose carriageway, then that would seem to be A CLEAR INDICATION THAT VEHICULAR RIGHTS EXIST OVER IT. As I said quite clearly in my letter of 15 September, where a UCR carries vehicular rights these rights remain, unless they have been extinguished by due process of law. The rights may be lawfully exercised and it follows that anyone interfering with the exercise of those rights - INCLUDING A LOCAL AUTHORITY - may themselves be committing an offence."
Dear Powys County Council,
Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.
I am writing to request an internal review of Powys County Council's handling of my FOI request 'Vehicle use on Unclassified Roads'.
There were five question and so far you have only responded to 1
1. Please provide a copy of the chart/table previously used by Powys Highways to respond to public enquirers regarding public rights on highways. The chart demonstrated clearly that unclassified roads can be used by vehicles
DONE, AND THIS DOES CONFIRM VEHICLE RIGHTS ON UCRS.
2. Please confirm who, how and when it was decided to stop using the chart
NOT ANSWERED.
3. Please provide the documents that record any changes to the statements made in the chart requested in the first question
NOT PROVIDED.
4. Please set out the change in law that would support any changes in policy regarding unclassified roads since Powys stopped using the chart
NOT ANSWERED
5. If there has been 'NO' policy change please confirm this
NOT ANSWERED.
The new WG guidance (PARA 5.60) you have posted quite clearly confirms the 1998 DETR letters that it is only when a DMMO is made to add a UCR to the DM that the rights need to be proven:
Further you have posted your Motorised Access Strategy which only applies to Byways ie BOATs.
Other Counties have also confirmed in the past their UCRS are vehicular carriageways and continue to accept that they are.
If there is a change it is up to you to prove it, not me. So far you have produced nothing.
For you to have changed a clear policy there must be Cabinet papers to authorise the change, otherwise the chart/table already supplied remains valid.
Will you please produce the documents that support your contention of a policy change or alternatively agree that Powys UCRs are vehicular as advised in the chart provided under question 1.
A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/v...
Yours faithfully,
Tristan Craddock
Dear Mr Craddock
We acknowledge receipt of your complaint regarding the Information relating to "Vehicle Use on Unclassified Roads". I regret that you have expressed dissatisfaction in the service provided by Powys County Council in respect of your recent request for information. Your complaint will be referred to the most appropriate individual for review, in accordance with the Council’s Freedom of Information Complaints Policy.
Powys County Council attempts to respond to requests for a review within 20 working days, however, this is not possible in all cases. We will endeavour to respond by 17th May 2017.
Yours Sincerely
Information Compliance Team
Dear Mr Craddock
Please find attached our response to your request for an Internal Review
into the above named & numbered request.
Information Compliance Team
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Chris Marsden left an annotation ()
This is another very iffy reply. AS THE PCC RESPONSES ARE A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM THE REQUEST, I HAVE ANOTATED BELOW IN CAPITALS - NO INTENTION TO 'SHOUT'. hth
A copy of the chart that we believe is being referred to is attached.
2. Please confirm who, how and when it was decided to stop
using the chart
The copy attached was found in a general file with no supporting
evidence. We have been unable to find anything to indicate that the chart
was ever formally approved for use or formally withdrawn from use. Its
status is therefore as an uncontrolled document distributed to recipients
who are not required to be kept up-to-date if the document changes.
An officer recalls the chart and believes it was produced after 1996 but
was only in limited circulation for a short period.
ANOTHER CLASSIC FAKE FACT. I WAS SENT A COPY OF THE CHART. I PERSONALY KNOW AND CAN NAME AT LEAST FIVE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE GIVEN THIS WHEN VISITING PCC HIGHWAYS TO SEE THE LOS, OR WERE SENT THIS CHART. IT WAS IN USE FOR SEVERAL YEARS.
IT *WAS* WIDELY DISTRIBUTED.
Attached is legal
position that was confirmed by the DETR letter of 24/08/1998 and
subsequent confirmation in Wales by the Welsh Office on 18/11/1998.
THIS IS NOT WHAT THE DETR LETTER IS REFERRING TO. IT IS FOR DETERMINING DMMOs NOT UCR USE.
3. Please provide the documents that record any changes to the
statements made in the chart requested in the first question
No evidence has been found to indicate that the document was formally
issued or withdrawn.
WELL IT WAS ISSUED, ERGO IT IS EXTANT. SO WHY DIDNT PCC SIMPLY STATE THIS?
4. Please set out the change in law that would support any
changes in policy regarding unclassified roads since Powys stopped using
the chart
The document produced is an uncontrolled document. Only the courts can
give an authoritative interpretation of the law, this is supported by the
statement in the Welsh Office letter of 18/11/1998 (para 2.)
THIS IS NOT WHAT THE WO LETTERS ARE REFERRING TO. IT IS DMMOs NOT UCR USE.