Request Minutes of meeting concerning airborne Covid-19 and RPE for HCWs
Dear NHS England,
I refer to a meeting which was held on 3rd June 2021 at which representatives from Government (DHSC and PHE), accompanied by members of the IPC Cell and the Chief Nursing Officer, met with representatives from several medical professional institutions, colleges and trade unions.
At this meeting a presentation was made to you (a) confirming that COVID-19 is transmissible via the airborne route, (b) informing you that UK healthcare workers were experiencing higher levels of infection and mortality rates than other countries and (c) making the case for proper respiratory protective equipment (RPE) to be provided whilst caring for confirmed or suspected COVID-19 cases instead of fluid resistant surgical masks.
The presentation which was made to you may be found here : https://www.rcslt.org/wp-content/uploads...
I have already raised a FoI request to DHSC on this matter, who replied that they did not hold the information requested (i.e. notes or minutes of the meeting).
Helpfully, The DHSC did provide an unredacted copy of a letter that was written by a Mr Michael Dynan-Oakley to the stakeholders after the meeting. I see that he referred to the meeting as “the IPC Guidance Stakeholder Meeting” and stated, at paragraph 24, that the Chief Nursing Officer (Dame Ruth May) was present. This may help you identify the meeting in question and locate the notes thereof. You may wish to enquire of the CNO if she has the notes, as I am sure that such a senior and responsible figure in the NHS would have ensured that notes were taken by her people. I hope you will be able to find them.
I know that some Government meetings are held under something called the “Chatham House Rule” in order to facilitate open, unfettered and constructive dialogue between the parties. Under this rule it is forbidden to identify any member present at the meeting, but it does not preclude the taking and publishing of minutes. The meeting on 3 June 2021 presumably cannot have been subject to the “Chatham House Rule” since Mr Dynan-Oakley identified not only himself as being present at the meeting but also Dame Ruth May and quoted something she said – which is directly prohibited by the rule.
This was an important meeting where I understand that organisations representing hundreds of thousands of NHS employees came together to meet Government Departments and yourselves in order to draw attention to IPC guidance which they considered to be endangering their lives perhaps by putting them at risk of COVID-19 through inadequate respiratory protection.
It is difficult to believe, that no notes at all were made by anyone attending such a crucial meeting in the midst of a global pandemic when healthcare workers were dying at a far higher rate than in other countries (e.g. 18 times the mortality rate in Germany where ECDC had recommended respirators rather than surgical masks for healthcare workers caring for Covid patients since June 2020).
Please therefore provide any minutes or notes made of that meeting by any of the participants from the Government side (e.g. PHE, DHSC, NHS) which the NHS has in its possession.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Yours faithfully,
David Osborn
Dear David Osborn,
NHS England has assessed your communication as a request under the Freedom
of Information (FOI) Act 2000. Your request is being dealt with under the
terms of the FOI Act and will be answered within twenty working days. Your
reference number is FOI-2308-2012207.
For further information regarding the FOI Act, please refer to the website
of the [1]Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). For further information
regarding NHS England, and the information we publish, please visit [2]our
website.
If you have any queries about this request or wish to contact us again,
please email [3][NHS England request email] and the message will be
forwarded appropriately. Please remember to quote the above reference
number in any future communications.
Yours sincerely,
Freedom of Information
NHS England
PO Box 16738
REDDITCH
B97 9PT
Tel: 0300 311 22 33
Email: [4][NHS England request email]
Dear David Osborn,
We refer to your email of 11 August 2023 in which you requested
information under the FOI Act from NHS England.
You made the following request:
“I refer to a meeting which was held on 3rd June 2021 at which
representatives from Government (DHSC and PHE), accompanied by members of
the IPC Cell and the Chief Nursing Officer, met with representatives from
several medical professional institutions, colleges and trade unions.
At this meeting a presentation was made to you (a) confirming that
COVID-19 is transmissible via the airborne route, (b) informing you that
UK healthcare workers were experiencing higher levels of infection and
mortality rates than other countries and (c) making the case for proper
respiratory protective equipment (RPE) to be provided whilst caring for
confirmed or suspected COVID-19 cases instead of fluid resistant surgical
masks.
The presentation which was made to you may be found here :
https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlo...
I have already raised a FoI request to DHSC on this matter, who replied
that they did not hold the information requested (i.e. notes or minutes of
the meeting).
Helpfully, The DHSC did provide an unredacted copy of a letter that was
written by a Mr Michael Dynan-Oakley to the stakeholders after the
meeting. I see that he referred to the meeting as “the IPC Guidance
Stakeholder Meeting” and stated, at paragraph 24, that the Chief Nursing
Officer (Dame Ruth May) was present. This may help you identify the
meeting in question and locate the notes thereof. You may wish to enquire
of the CNO if she has the notes, as I am sure that such a senior and
responsible figure in the NHS would have ensured that notes were taken by
her people. I hope you will be able to find them.
I know that some Government meetings are held under something called the
“Chatham House Rule” in order to facilitate open, unfettered and
constructive dialogue between the parties. Under this rule it is forbidden
to identify any member present at the meeting, but it does not preclude
the taking and publishing of minutes. The meeting on 3 June 2021
presumably cannot have been subject to the “Chatham House Rule” since Mr
Dynan-Oakley identified not only himself as being present at the meeting
but also Dame Ruth May and quoted something she said – which is directly
prohibited by the rule.
This was an important meeting where I understand that organisations
representing hundreds of thousands of NHS employees came together to meet
Government Departments and yourselves in order to draw attention to IPC
guidance which they considered to be endangering their lives perhaps by
putting them at risk of COVID-19 through inadequate respiratory
protection.
It is difficult to believe, that no notes at all were made by anyone
attending such a crucial meeting in the midst of a global pandemic when
healthcare workers were dying at a far higher rate than in other countries
(e.g. 18 times the mortality rate in Germany where ECDC had recommended
respirators rather than surgical masks for healthcare workers caring for
Covid patients since June 2020).
Please therefore provide any minutes or notes made of that meeting by any
of the participants from the Government side (e.g. PHE, DHSC, NHS) which
the NHS has in its possession.”
Decision
NHS England does not hold the information you have requested.
We can confirm that NHS England did not receive any minutes/notes of the
DHSC led meeting held on 3rd June 2021 and confirm Dame Ruth May did not
take notes or arrange minutes to be taken.
To our understanding, any minutes/notes for this meeting would have been
taken and held by DHSC or possibly the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA),
the organisation which replaced PHE: [1]UK Health Security Agency - GOV.UK
(www.gov.uk).
Review rights
If you consider that your request for information has not been properly
handled or if you are otherwise dissatisfied with the outcome of your
request, you may seek an internal review within NHS England of the issue
or the decision. A senior member of NHS England’s staff, who has not
previously been involved with your request, will undertake that review.
If you are dissatisfied with the outcome of any internal review, you may
[2]complain to the Information Commissioner for a decision on whether your
request for information has been dealt with in accordance with the FOI
Act.
A request for an internal review should be submitted in writing to
[3][NHS England request email].
Yours sincerely,
Freedom of Information
NHS England
Dear FOICRM (NHS ENGLAND - X24),
Thank you for your reply.
Thank you also for checking with Dame Ruth May and for confirming that she did not make any notes of the meeting. However, she was not the only person from the NHS present at the meeting by far. Before this FoI request can be satisfactorily closed I would ask Dame Ruth May (in the spirit of the cooperation with the group which I understand she promised at the end of that meeting) to do 2 things please:
1) to check with every member of the NHS present at that meeting (eg IPC Cell representatives) and ask each one to confirm whether or not they took any notes of the meeting and, if so, to provide them as required by FoI law: and
2) To liaise with Mr Michael Dynan-Oakley (DHSC) (who has publicly acknowledged that he chaired that meeting) and, between you and a senior Director of UK-HSA, check likewise with every person from their organisations whether they took notes and, if so, provide them.
I am given to understand that, at the start of the meeting he announced, without forewarning to the parties involved that formal minutes would note be made in accordance with Chatham House Rules (which, in reality do not prohibit the making of minutes, so he is quite wrong there). However, I am also given to understand that he confirmed that colleagues from his department would be making notes of the main points and that he would share these in due course. So my question is "where are they? Please provide them"
It should not be for a FOI requestor to have to chase round every single Government Department and NHS department to seek out documents such as this. You (collectively) are under a duty to assist FOI requestor so please ask Dame Ruth May to do just that.
I repeat my previous statement that it is difficult to believe, that no notes at all were made by anyone
attending such a crucial meeting in the midst of a global pandemic when healthcare workers were dying at a far higher rate than in other countries.
The attendees at that meeting represented over a million healthcare workers who deserve to see notes of the discussions which related to their life and death from COVID-19
Yours sincerely,
David Osborn
Dear NHS England,
Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.
I am writing to request an internal review of NHS England's handling of my FOI request 'Request Minutes of meeting concerning airborne Covid-19 and RPE for HCWs'.
On 12 September I wrote to you confirming that the your response was unsatisfactory and that you revisit it.
You have neither acknowledged nor responded to that correspondence. I am therefore requesting a formal FoI review and confirm that the matter will be referred to the ICO if no satisfactory response (i.e. minutes/notes received) by 15 November 2023.
A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/r...
Yours faithfully,
David Osborn
*THIS IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE - YOUR EMAIL WILL BE RESPONDED TO BY A MEMBER OF
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Freedom of Information Internal Review outcome
Our Ref: FOI - 2308-2012207 | FOI - 2309-2021946 IR
Dear David Osborn,
We write further to your email of 12 September 2023 in which you requested
an internal review under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOI Act).
The FOI Management team have reviewed your and this letter provides an
outcome of this review. Please accept our apologies for the delay in
processing your request.
FOI request
On 11 August 2023, you requested the following information:
“I refer to a meeting which was held on 3rd June 2021 at which
representatives from Government (DHSC and PHE), accompanied by members of
the IPC Cell and the Chief Nursing Officer, met with representatives from
several medical professional institutions, colleges and trade unions.
At this meeting a presentation was made to you (a) confirming that
COVID-19 is transmissible via the airborne route, (b) informing you that
UK healthcare workers were experiencing higher levels of infection and
mortality rates than other countries and (c) making the case for proper
respiratory protective equipment (RPE) to be provided whilst caring for
confirmed or suspected COVID-19 cases instead of fluid resistant surgical
masks.
The presentation which was made to you may be found here
: [1]https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlo...
I have already raised a FoI request to DHSC on this matter, who replied
that they did not hold the information requested (i.e. notes or minutes of
the meeting).
Helpfully, The DHSC did provide an unredacted copy of a letter that was
written by a Mr Michael Dynan-Oakley to the stakeholders after the
meeting. I see that he referred to the meeting as “the IPC Guidance
Stakeholder Meeting” and stated, at paragraph 24, that the Chief Nursing
Officer (Dame Ruth May) was present. This may help you identify the
meeting in question and locate the notes thereof. You may wish to enquire
of the CNO if she has the notes, as I am sure that such a senior and
responsible figure in the NHS would have ensured that notes were taken by
her people. I hope you will be able to find them.
I know that some Government meetings are held under something called the
“Chatham House Rule” in order to facilitate open, unfettered and
constructive dialogue between the parties. Under this rule it is forbidden
to identify any member present at the meeting, but it does not preclude
the taking and publishing of minutes. The meeting on 3 June 2021
presumably cannot have been subject to the “Chatham House Rule” since Mr
Dynan-Oakley identified not only himself as being present at the meeting
but also Dame Ruth May and quoted something she said – which is directly
prohibited by the rule.
This was an important meeting where I understand that organisations
representing hundreds of thousands of NHS employees came together to meet
Government Departments and yourselves in order to draw attention to IPC
guidance which they considered to be endangering their lives perhaps by
putting them at risk of COVID-19 through inadequate respiratory
protection.
It is difficult to believe, that no notes at all were made by anyone
attending such a crucial meeting in the midst of a global pandemic when
healthcare workers were dying at a far higher rate than in other countries
(e.g. 18 times the mortality rate in Germany where ECDC had recommended
respirators rather than surgical masks for healthcare workers caring for
Covid patients since June 2020).
Please therefore provide any minutes or notes made of that meeting by any
of the participants from the Government side (e.g. PHE, DHSC, NHS) which
the NHS has in its possession.”
NHS England responded to your FOI request on 8 September 2023. In our
response we stated that we do not hold the information you have requested.
We confirmed that NHS England did not receive any minutes/notes of the
DHSC led meeting held on 3^rd June 2021 and confirmed that Dame Ruth May
did not take notes or arrange for minutes to be taken. We also provided
details of which organisations may hold the information you requested.
Internal review request
On 12 September 2023, you submitted the following request for an internal
review:
“Thank you also for checking with Dame Ruth May and for confirming that
she did not make any notes of the meeting. However, she was not the only
person from the NHS present at the meeting by far. Before this FoI request
can be satisfactorily closed I would ask Dame Ruth May (in the spirit of
the cooperation with the group which I understand she promised at the end
of that meeting) to do 2 things please:
1) to check with every member of the NHS present at that meeting (eg IPC
Cell representatives) and ask each one to confirm whether or not they took
any notes of the meeting and, if so, to provide them as required by FoI
law: and
2) To liaise with Mr Michael Dynan-Oakley (DHSC) (who has publicly
acknowledged that he chaired that meeting) and, between you and a senior
Director of UK-HSA, check likewise with every person from their
organisations whether they took notes and, if so, provide them.
I am given to understand that, at the start of the meeting he announced,
without forewarning to the parties involved that formal minutes would note
be made in accordance with Chatham House Rules (which, in reality do not
prohibit the making of minutes, so he is quite wrong there). However, I am
also given to understand that he confirmed that colleagues from his
department would be making notes of the main points and that he would
share these in due course. So my question is "where are they? Please
provide them"
It should not be for a FOI requestor to have to chase round every single
Government Department and NHS department to seek out documents such as
this. You (collectively) are under a duty to assist FOI requestor so
please ask Dame Ruth May to do just that.
I repeat my previous statement that it is difficult to believe, that no
notes at all were made by anyone attending such a crucial meeting in the
midst of a global pandemic when healthcare workers were dying at a far
higher rate than in other countries.
The attendees at that meeting represented over a million healthcare
workers who deserve to see notes of the discussions which related to their
life and death from COVID-19.”
Decision
We have reviewed your request for an internal review and the original
decision has been upheld.
Reasons for decision
NHS England does not hold the information you have requested. The Freedom
of Information Act 2000 only applies to information that a public
authority, to which the request is made, already holds at the time of a
request. If the information is not already held then we are not obliged to
create it.
We have complied with Section 16 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 by
providing you with assistance by directing you to organisations that may
hold the information that you have requested.
Review rights
We hope that this explains our handling of your FOI request. However, if
you are not content with our response, you have the right to apply
directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision. The Information
Commissioner’s Office (ICO) can be contacted at the following weblink:
[2]https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/foi-...
Please do not reply to this email. This message has been sent from a
central mailbox. All correspondence should be sent
to [3][NHS England request email].
Yours sincerely,
Freedom of Information
NHS England
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