Payments to Woodside High School / Academy Re:ASCL union officer

The request was refused by Haringey Borough Council.

Dear Haringey Borough Council,

Please supply me with details of any costs or other payments made to Woodside High School or Woodside Academy out of the council’s facilities budget to cover or offset the costs of Dame Joan McVittie’s term of office as an officer of her union, ASCL.

Yours faithfully,

Alan Stanton

Clay Lesley, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton

 

Freedom of Information / Environmental Information Regulations Request:
Reference LBH/3750414

 

I acknowledge your request for information received on 18 November 2014.

This information request will be dealt with in accordance with the Freedom
of Information Act 2000 / Environmental Information Regulations and we
will send the response by 16 December 2014.

 

If you have any questions, please contact us on 020 8489 1988 or
[email address].

Yours sincerely

 

 

Lesley Clay

Feedback Review Officer

Feedback & Information Governance | 020 8489 1988

Haringey Council

 

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Phillips Anji, Haringey Borough Council

 

By email

 

 

Dear Mr Stanton,

Re: Freedom of Information Act Request ref: LBH/3750414

 

Thank you for your request for information received on 20 November 2014,
in which you asked for the following information:

 

Please supply me with details of any costs or other payments made to
Woodside High School or Woodside Academy out of the council’s facilities
budget to cover or offset the costs of Dame Joan McVittie’s term of office
as an officer of her union, ASCL.

 

My response is as follows:

 

Woodside is an academy and the employer of their own staff.  Any cover
arrangements are their responsibility not the council’s as we are not the
employer. 

 

If you have any further queries, or are unhappy with how we have dealt
with your request and wish to make a complaint, please contact the
Feedback and Information Team as below. (Please note you should do this
within two months of receiving this response.)   

 

Feedback and Information Team

River Park House

225 High Road

N22 8HQ

Telephone: 020 8489 1988

Email: [1][email address]

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Anji Phillips

 

Interim Assistant Director, Schools and Learning

The Children and Young People's Service

Haringey Professional Development Centre

Downhills Park Road

Tottenham

N17 6AR

[2][email address]

Tel:  020 8489 5075

 

[3]www.haringey.gov.uk

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Dear Haringey Borough Council and Ms Anji Phillips,

Thank you for your reply to my Freedom of Information Request.

However, I think we are at cross-purposes.

If you would kindly re-read my FoI request you will see that I was not enquiring about the school's arrangements for back-filling Dame Joan McVittie’s absence on union duties.

My enquiring was about Council funding to the school out of the Council's centrally-held budget for Trades Union facility time. I understand that Dame Joan McVittie was a national vice president, president or past president of her trade union.

My apologies for not making this completely clear in my original email. However, Dame Joan McVittie is a well-known national figure in Education and I assumed this background context would have been familiar to Haringey staff.

In addition I think I am correct in thinking that the school was a local authority school for all or at least part of the period in question.

To be clear, I'd like to know whether or not any Council money was paid to the school as a community school or as an academy for this purpose. And if so, how much?

Yours faithfully,
Alan Stanton

Dyos Sue, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

Internal Review regarding Freedom of Information request reference
LBH/3750414

 

Thank you for email received on 16 December 2014.

 

Your request for an Internal Review has been logged with the reference
LBH/3847514. Please quote this reference number on any further
correspondence.

 

We will now review the response you have been sent to the above request
and I aim to let you know the outcome of our investigation by 16 January
2015. If I need longer, I will write to let you know the reason and when
you can expect a full reply.

 

If you have any questions, please let me know.  

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Sue Dyos

Feedback Team Leader

 

Haringey Council

River Park House, 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

 

T. 020 8489 2556

[email address]

 

www.haringey.gov.uk

twitter@haringeycouncil

facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

 

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

 

show quoted sections

FOI, Haringey Borough Council

1 Attachment

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

Please see attached response,

 

regards

 

Sue Dyos

Feedback Team Leader

 

Haringey Council

River Park House, 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential, may be
subject to legal privilege and are intended only for the person(s) or
organisation(s) to whom this email is addressed. Any unauthorised use,
retention, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this email in error, please notify the system
administrator at Haringey Council immediately and delete this e-mail from
your system. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be
free of any virus or other defect which might affect any computer or
system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility
of the recipient to ensure they are virus free and no responsibility is
accepted for any loss or damage from receipt or use thereof. All
communications sent to or from external third party organisations may be
subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with relevant
legislation.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________

Dear Haringey Borough Council ,

My thanks for responding to my request for a review and for replying in a timely way.
Thanks also, for accepting there was an inaccuracy in the information previously supplied and apologising for this.
I am happy to accept the apology. I appreciate that in giving answers you are reliant on another Council service; and I understand they are under work pressures in preparation for the Council's annual budget.

Naturally I am reluctant to write to the Information Commissioner, as this may lead to further correspondence and time being spent. To avoid this can I please be helpful and:
(1) Request completion of the Internal Review by Haringey based on accurate information.
(2) Explain the inaccuracy by asking you to read a Council Committee Report, which should assist you in providing what I hope will be a definitive answer in response to my request.

Please see the record of Haringey's General Purposes Committee (GP) dated 4 May 2011 which I downloaded from the Council’s website. Here’s the link. (Cut and paste the entire two line string.)
http://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/docum...

The meeting was held to agree substantial reductions in time-off allowed for Trade Union activities and crucially *to make savings in the Council’s budget allocated* for this purpose. This shows clearly that the statement in your last reply that: “There is no centrally held budget for trade union time ...“ is inaccurate. Whatever the internal administrative arrangements may be - it appears to be factually established by Haringey's own GP committee reports that there was an allocation agreed by that Committee.

From the papers it appears clear that not only was such an allocation made, but also that from time to time it was discussed, updated, and approved by the General Purposes Committee with financial advice from council officers.

Importantly, the GP committee formally allocated the total budget among the trades unions. The GP papers for 4 May 2011 contain a table setting out the specific earmarked allocation to named trade unions. (Please see Appendix A.) This table showed the allocation for ASCL reduced from 0.2 to 0.1 FTE. (Which in my layman’s understanding means half a day a week.)
Putting this another way, Haringey Council formally decided to allocate half-a-day a week trade union facility time to the elected ASCL rep; and to make provision in the budget from which this could be drawn down.
It’s possible that at some points the ASCL rep for the time being may or may not have drawn from this allocation. I imagine this might vary according to the particular ASCL rep and whether the trade union duties they carried out during their term of office were particularly onerous.

That's the context. My specific questions related to the period during which Dame Joan McVittie was elected to and served as the ASCL rep.
To clarify the information I seek and for which you would have records, having I hope agreed that Haringey General Purposes Committee allocated funds to ASCL as their share of the Trades Union facilities budget, were any such funds paid out during Dame Joan McVittie’s tenure serving as an ASCL rep?
As I understand it, Dame Joan McVittie served as ASCL's National Vice President, President and/or Past President of her union. As such she may have been called on to undertake a number of formal trade union duties.

If no funds were drawn down for ASCL during this time period please say so. If funds were drawn down, please say how much.

I hope this is helpful and can avoid an approach to the Information Commissioner. I also apologise that this message is detailed. This is because I've tried to set out the position as unambiguously as possible.

Alan Stanton

Dyos Sue, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I have reviewed the report you refer you but I cannot see the following
 sentence in the report “to make savings in the Council’s budget allocated
for this purpose.” The report is dated 04 May 2011. It is possible that
there may have been a central budget at that time, although I don’t see
where in the report it says that there was.

 

In any event, it would seem that the information you are asking for is
already in the public domain. For example, the report you sent us tell us
that in 2010 £14,553 was granted to ASCL.  If you can tell us the actual
time period that you are interested in, it should be possible to answer
your present question which is:

 

were any such funds paid out during Dame Joan McVittie’s tenure serving as
an ASCL rep? 

 

Regards,

 

Sue Dyos

Feedback Team Leader

 

 

show quoted sections

Dear Ms Dyos,

Thank you for your reply.

I see that unfortunately, I appear to have misled you when I wrote that the purpose of the report on 4 May 2011 was *to make savings in the Council’s budget allocated* for this purpose.
If you look closely you will see that when I quote from a document I use quotation marks ("). My purpose when using these star marks (*) was to add stress, (I don't know how to type bold text when using the website What Do They Know.)

Paragraph 1 of that report reads as follows.
"1. Purpose of the report
This paper seeks to amend the trade union facilities, duties, activities and time off arrangements across the Council with a view to reducing expenditure on current time off provision."

Paragraph two of the same report:
"2. State link(s) with Council Plan Priorities and actions and /or other Strategies:
2.1. Links to the council requirement to achieve a balanced budget over the next three financial years."

Third paragraph:
"3. Recommendations
3.1. That Members agree to the recommended changes to the trade union time off provision as described in paragraphs 7. In summary this means a reduction of 4.6 full time equivalent (FTE) in Branch Officer and Employee side time off and reducing the scope of the paid time off for attendance at accredited conferences."

Paragraph Four:
"4. Reason for recommendations
4.1. The current economic situation means the council is required to make substantial efficiency savings on council expenditure in order to set a legal budget. Therefore a review of the trade union facilities, duties, activities and time off arrangements has been undertaken in order to reduce council expenditure in the time off provision."

The report contains tables setting out the reductions. Including to ASCL ((Association of College & School Lecturers).

Section eight of the report contains two paragraphs.
"8. Chief Financial Officer Comments
8.1 Any savings are dependant on who the representatives are at a given point in time since the staff are seconded from their substantive jobs into the union role. The costs can therefore vary according to the grade of the job that the union person occupies.
8.2 Based on the current occupants of the union roles and average calculations of pay levels the proposed time off reductions result in an approximate saving in a full year of £190k on current levels of expenditure."

I believe that my very short summary of the purpose of that meeting of the Council's General Purposes Committee on 4 May 2011 was fair and accurate. As I stated it agreed substantial reductions in time-off allowed for Trade Union activities; and crucially made savings in the Council’s budget allocated for this purpose.

In your reply you quote the the figure of £14,553 allocated for ASCL (Association of College & School Lecturers) for the preceding year.
As I hoped I had made crystal clear in my previous email requesting an Internal Review, there is a difference between the Council allocating funds and whether or not trade union representatives choose to draw down those funds.

If I can be helpful and try to state what should now be common ground between us, it seems uncontentious that Trade Union facility time was agreed for ASCL and other trades unions. Which Council decision followed - as it must - the advice of your Chief Financial Officer at the time, bearing in mind the budget process and funding constraints.

I do not know the exact dates of Dame Joan McVitie's term or terms of office as an ASCL representative. I am not certain, but from information online it appears that Dame Joan was the President of ASCL 2011 – 2012.

Whatever the exact dates, Haringey must have a record of whether or not a recognised trade union representative drew down public funds allocated by your General Purposes Committee. And if so how much money was paid and to whom.

So can you please now tell me: Was any money paid since 2011 to meet the costs or as a contribution to the costs of time-off for any ASCL trade union representatives? If so which schools received money? Who were the named representatives for whom the sums were paid? How much was paid?

Thank you.
Alan Stanton

FOI, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

Thank you for your email, which we have logged as a new request. (Reference LBH/3992415)

This information request will be dealt with in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000 / Environmental Information Regulations and we will send the response by 05 March 2015.

If you have any questions, please contact us on 020 8489 1988 or [email address].

Sue Dyos
Feedback Team Leader

Haringey Council
River Park House, 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

T. 020 8489 2556
[email address]

www.haringey.gov.uk
twitter@haringeycouncil
facebook.com/haringeycouncil

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

show quoted sections

Dear FOI and Ms Dyos,

My thanks for your prompt reply. However, please allow me to point out that this is not a new request. It is the same request I made originally, but rephrased to try to be as clear and helpful as possible to you and your colleagues, since you appear to have been a little puzzled by it. (Or perhaps there may have been some miscommunication between yourselves and the other departments which you have approached for the answer?)

I would therefore please ask you to confirm that my original request - as clarified between us in this correspondence - will now be answered without any further delays. Of course should you still be unclear then I would be happy to assist further.

As I am typing this at 13:38 on 5 February, soon after seeing your reply above, I am happy to wait until tomorrow Friday 6 February to hear from you. After which I will, with much reluctance, be writing to the Information Commissioner's Office.

Yours sincerely,

Alan Stanton

FOI, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

I am Ms Dyos’ manager and responsible for FOIs in Haringey Council. She
asked me if we should treat this as a new request and I said that we
should because you are asking for different information.

 

Initially the request was:

1.      Please supply me with details of any costs or other payments made
to Woodside High School or Woodside Academy out of the council’s
facilities budget to cover or offset the costs of Dame Joan McVittie’s
term of office as an officer of her union, ASCL.

 

It is now:

2.      Was any money paid since 2011 to meet the costs or as a
contribution to the costs of time-off for any ASCL trade union
representatives?  If so which schools received money? Who were the named
representatives for whom the sums were paid? How much was paid?

 

While they are clearly related, I do not think that you could argue that
it is the same request; nor do I think you could argue that we ought to
have realised that you meant what is said in paragraph 2 above when you
submitted the first request.

 

I assume that you would prefer us to proceed with the new request rather
than await a ruling from the ICO on whether or not this should be treated
as a new request. If I am wrong about that, please let us know. Otherwise,
we will respond by 5 March 15.

 

 

Yours,

 

 

Anita Hunt

Feedback & Information Governance Manager

 

Haringey Council

River Park House , 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

 

T. 020 8489 2547

[1][email address]

 

[2]www.haringey.gov.uk

[3]twitter@haringeycouncil

[4]facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Dear Ms Hunt, and FOI

Again my thanks for the speed of your answer. And for the clarity with which you have given your reason for - in effect - asking me to begin the whole process again.

I disagree with you. I think it is perfectly possible to argue that I am asking the same question and seeking the same information I started with. For the very simple reason: that is what I am doing.

I do, however, accept that I have attempted to reframe my question. But that was only in response to the queries from Ms Dyos. Which of course, I assumed were made as part of your legal duty to assist me.

So when Ms Dyos queried the existence of money allocated centrally for trades union facilities time. I pointed to the relevant Committee decision.

When Ms Dyos was puzzled by the wording I used which she could not find in the report I cited. I explained this was not a quote but my own summary - which I believe accurately reflected the Councils' own Report.

Ms Dyos asked me to stipulate exact dates for the time-frame of my request. As I don't know them I did the best I could and reframed the question to enable a relevant time frame.

I have made it clear from the outset what I wanted to know. There was no ambiguity about the key purpose of my request which was to seek recorded information about any public money as trade union facility time paid in respect of Dame Joan McVittie's election to office as ASCL representative.

I have, in good faith and in response to Ms Dyos, tried to reframe my question so that it was clear and wide enough to meet the objections and queries Ms Dyos raised.

If it's helpful, I will state that I am not concerned with ASCL reps other than Dame Joan McVittie; so I'd be content if you answered my question on this basis.

Can I therefore please ask you to *properly* review our correspondence taking it as a whole. (The stars indicate stress, not quotation.)

Ms Hunt, you are in a position of power and you have the power to delay my request for a further four weeks. As I am sure you realise, I will eventually get this information. Further delay will simply waste time and create unnecessary extra work.

Yours sincerely,

Alan Stanton

FOI, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

I do think you are asking for different information and think it is a new
request. I have the power to make that decision for the Council, but it is
not a decision to delay your request.

 

Whether we treat it as a “re-review” (something that is not part of our
procedure or the statutory guidance) or as a new request makes no
practical difference. We re-review your request, obtain the information
that you have asked for and give it to you; or, we treat it as a new
request and ask the service to give the information to you. One wouldn’t
necessarily take any longer than the other.

 

We have treated it is a new request and you should get your response
shortly. I can assure you that our motivation is not to hinder you getting
your information, but to make sure we follow the proper process, which
would give you the right to an internal review if there is any problem
with the response you receive.

 

Yours,

 

Anita Hunt

Feedback & Information Governance Manager

 

Haringey Council

River Park House , 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

 

T. 020 8489 2547

[1][email address]

 

[2]www.haringey.gov.uk

[3]twitter@haringeycouncil

[4]facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

show quoted sections

Murton Neville, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

Re: Freedom of Information Act Request ref: LBH/3992415

 

Thank you for your request for information received on 05 February 2015,
in which you asked for the following information:

 

Was any money paid since 2011 to meet the costs or as a contribution to
the costs of time-off for any ASCL trade union representatives?  If so
which schools received money? Who were the named representatives for whom
the sums were paid? How much was paid?

 

My response is as follows:

 

We can find no apparent payments to any Haringey School in relation to
ASCL trade Union representation during the period 2011 – 2014.

 

If you have any further queries, or are unhappy with how we have dealt
with your request and wish to make a complaint, please contact the
Feedback and Information Team as below. (Please note you should do this
within two months of receiving this response.)   

 

Feedback and Information Team

River Park House

225 High Road

N22 8HQ

Telephone: 020 8489 1988

Email: [1][email address]

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

Neville Murton

Head of Finance (Budgets, Accounting and Systems Team)

 

Haringey Council

1st Floor

Alexandra House

10 Station Road

Wood Green

London

N22 7TR

 

T: 020 8489 3176

[2][email address]

 

 

[3]www.haringey.gov.uk

[4]twitter@haringeycouncil

facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

show quoted sections

Dear Haringey Borough Council, and Mr Neville Murton,

Final try hoping for a simple unambiguous answer.

I put my question into two sentences.

In the first sentence I asked:
Was any money paid since 2011 to meet the costs or as a contribution to the costs of time-off for any ASCL trade union representatives?

That appears to me to be capable of a yes/no reply.

I don't know what an "apparent payment" might be. If local councils keep any records carefully and scrupulously then I assume that records of exact payments received, and from which source; and exact payments made and to whom, are a top priority.

I would imagine Grant Thornton the Council's auditors might take a similar view.

To repeat and simplify : were any payments made to ASCL in the time frame I gave?

If not, then for the avoidance of any doubt, please answer unequivocally, in terms, that there were none.

If there were any payments made, then please supply the further information I requested previously .

Yours faithfully,

Alan Stanton

Pietikainen Sirkku, Haringey Borough Council

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

Internal Review regarding Freedom of Information request reference
 LBH/3992415

 

Thank you for email received on 16 March 2015.

 

Your request for an Internal Review has been logged with the reference
LBH/4151115. Please quote this reference number on any further
correspondence.

 

We will now review the response you have been sent to the above request
and I aim to let you know the outcome of our investigation by 15 April
2015. If I need longer, I will write to let you know the reason and when
you can expect a full reply.

 

If you have any questions, please let me know.  

 

Yours sincerely

 

Sirkku Pietikäinen

Feedback Review Officer

 

Haringey Council

River Park House, 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

 

T. 020 8489 2552

[1][email address]

 

[2]www.haringey.gov.uk

[3]twitter@haringeycouncil

[4]facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Pietikainen Sirkku, Haringey Borough Council

1 Attachment

Dear Mr Stanton,

 

Please see attached the response to your FOI complaint/internal review.

 

Regards,

 

Sirkku Pietikäinen

Feedback Review Officer

 

Haringey Council

River Park House, 225 High Road, London N22 8HQ

 

T. 020 8489 2552

[1][email address]

 

[2]www.haringey.gov.uk

[3]twitter@haringeycouncil

[4]facebook.com/haringeycouncil

 

 

 

______________________________________________________________________
Are you registered to vote?
Don’t get turned away at the ballot box
Register your details at www.gov.uk/register-to-vote by 20 April 2015 to
vote in the 2015 parliamentary general election.
#yourvotematters

show quoted sections

This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________

References

Visible links
1. mailto:[email address]
2. http://www.haringey.gov.uk/
3. https://twitter.com/haringeycouncil
4. https://www.facebook.com/haringeycouncil