NPT Council - Land Ownership

Pat James (Account suspended) made this Freedom of Information request to Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council

This request has been closed to new correspondence from the public body. Contact us if you think it ought be re-opened.

Response to this request is long overdue. By law, under all circumstances, Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council should have responded by now (details). You can complain by requesting an internal review.

Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council, in pursuance of a civil litigation for failure to pay a parking charge or fine imposed by your council, please identify the party litigant by name (man or woman) who is the land owner (of public property) claiming tort against the defendant as defined in CPR.

This is not a request for legal advice, it is a request for fact of law

I also remind you of your duties and obligations to the Nolan Principles.

Yours faithfully,

Pat James

Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council

Many thanks for your email of 13/01/2017 which will be forwarded to the appropriate officer for their attention and they will reply to you within the next 20 working days. In the meantime, if you wish to contact us again on this matter please quote reference no. 938110. This is an automated response.

Diolch o galon am eich e-bost dyddiedig 13/01/2017 a fydd yn cael ei anfon ymlaen at sylw'r swyddog priodol. Byddant hwythau'n ymateb i chi o fewn yr 8 niwrnod gwaith nesaf. Yn y cyfamser, os byddwch am gysylltu a ni eto ynghylch y mater hwn byddwch gystal a dyfynnu cyfeirnod rhif 938110. Ymateb awtomatig yw hwn.

Steve Cook,

Dear Pat James,

For information, we would advise you that if the authority takes civil court proceedings against any third parties those proceedings are taken in the name of the authority’s Head of Legal Services.

However PCNs are fixed penalties imposed on drivers of illegally parked vehicles on roads by virtue of powers set out in statutory legislation [i.e. The Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area)(County Borough of Neath Port Talbot) Order 1999 and Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013]. They are not court proceedings commenced by traffic authorities and have nothing to do with land ownership.

Should you receive a penalty notice then you can informally appeal to the authority and should your appeal be rejected then you have the right to formally appeal against the issue of the penalty charge notice. You would then need to wait for the Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle and at this stage to are able to make a formal appeal.. Should the authority formally reject your appeal then then would supply you an official Notice of Rejection letter and attached to this letter the forms for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. This tribunal is totally independent from the authority.
Regards
Steve Cook
 
Parking Manager / Rheolwr Parcio
Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council / Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot
Tel / Ffôn: 01639 763968

We welcome correspondence in Welsh and will deal with Welsh and English correspondence to the same standards and timescales.
Croesewir gohebiaeth yn y Gymraeg a byddwn yn ymdrin â gohebiaeth Gymraeg a Saesneg i’r un safonau ac amserlenni

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. Please note also that there is no guarantee that this email or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted or amended.
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn mewn camgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r person a anfonodd yr e-bost ar unwaith. Hefyd, sylwer nad oes unrhyw sicrwydd nad yw'r e-bost hwn neu unrhyw ymgysylltiad yn rhydd o firws ac nad yw chwaith wedi'i ryng-gipio na'i newid.

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Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear Steve Cook, in regard of your latest communication, van the Head of Legal Services. provide the court with irrefutable evidence that he or she is the owner of the land on which the alleged parking infringement (tort) took place?

Yours sincerely,

Pat James

Steve Cook,

Dear Pat James,

A traffic authority for an area does not need to rely upon the fact that it is the landowner of the land upon which a road is built in order to be able to make a Road Traffic Regulation Order. Orders can be made by a traffic authority in respect to roads by virtue of the fact that those roads are either public highways OR they are roads which are regularly used by members of the public: this has been conferred by numerous cases in respect to traffic enforcement which have come before the courts over many years. The traffic authority does not need to rely upon land ownership on which the road is situated in order to make such orders.

Such roads also need not be "adopted public highways maintainable at the public expense" in order for an Order to be made in respect of them .

There is therefore no requirement that the traffic authority needs to own the land upon which a road is located in order for it to enforce a traffic regulation order ,which has been legally made, in respect of such a road.

Steve Cook
 
Parking Manager / Rheolwr Parcio
Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council / Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot
Tel / Ffôn: 01639 763968

We welcome correspondence in Welsh and will deal with Welsh and English correspondence to the same standards and timescales.
Croesewir gohebiaeth yn y Gymraeg a byddwn yn ymdrin â gohebiaeth Gymraeg a Saesneg i’r un safonau ac amserlenni

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. Please note also that there is no guarantee that this email or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted or amended.
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn mewn camgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r person a anfonodd yr e-bost ar unwaith. Hefyd, sylwer nad oes unrhyw sicrwydd nad yw'r e-bost hwn neu unrhyw ymgysylltiad yn rhydd o firws ac nad yw chwaith wedi'i ryng-gipio na'i newid.

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Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear Steve Cook, in reply to your response please furnish explanations of the following.

How can the Head of Legal Services instigate a civil action as a dead entity, who is not the land owner (against whom the tort has been committed)

Provide me the documentation under common law whereby a PCN 'issued' by an administrative court with no reverse liability, has any authority.

Yours sincerely,

Pat James

Steve Cook,

Dear Pat James,

The FOI Act 2000 requires public authorities to provide requestors with access to "recorded information" held by those public authorities: except in those situations where such information is exempt from disclosure under provisions contained within the Act. The FOI Act 2000 does not however require public authorities to provide any comments or expressions of opinion upon either the common law or statutory legislation which has been enacted by the UK Government.

We would inform you that the Authority does not regard your enquiries within your email this afternoon, as being enquiries for recorded information held by the Authority; rather they consist of:
[a] a question requiring a comment from the authority AND [b] a request for a copy of a document which does not exist due to the fact that PCNs are issued under the powers of UK statutory legislation, not as you assert under common law.

Accordingly, in light of the aforesaid , we would respectfully inform you that we do not intend to deal with either of the questions submitted in your email. We have previously indicated to you in our correspondence the Authority's position in respect to the legal standing and enforceability of PCN's; which it is evident from the contents of your correspondence you clearly do not accept.

Please be advised that the Authority's position on the enforceability of PCNs has not changed and that is our final position on this issue. We would therefore respectfully inform you that we do not intend to enter into any further ongoing debate with you in relation to what you perceive to be the validity of PCNs and we will therefore not be entering into any further debate/discussion with you [either by letter or email] in respect to their enforceability: as such discourse would achieve no practical purpose and serves no public purpose.

Yours faithfully,

Steve Cook
 
Parking Manager / Rheolwr Parcio
Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council / Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot
Tel / Ffôn: 01639 763968

We welcome correspondence in Welsh and will deal with Welsh and English correspondence to the same standards and timescales.
Croesewir gohebiaeth yn y Gymraeg a byddwn yn ymdrin â gohebiaeth Gymraeg a Saesneg i’r un safonau ac amserlenni

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. Please note also that there is no guarantee that this email or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted or amended.
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn mewn camgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r person a anfonodd yr e-bost ar unwaith. Hefyd, sylwer nad oes unrhyw sicrwydd nad yw'r e-bost hwn neu unrhyw ymgysylltiad yn rhydd o firws ac nad yw chwaith wedi'i ryng-gipio na'i newid.

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Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear Steve Cook, my request is for recorded information as it seeks the name of the man or woman who makes a claim.

Yours sincerely,

Pat James

Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council,

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to request an internal review of Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council's handling of my FOI request 'NPT Council - Land Ownership'.

You have stated that this is not a request for recorded information when it clearly is, you are also misinterpreting civil law, and furthermore attempting to impose policy as law.

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n...

Yours faithfully,

Pat James

FOI Team, Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am receipt of your email of today, 10th March 2017 and would confirm that this has been forwarded to the person who undertakes Freedom of Information reviews within the Authority and who will respond direct to yourself.
Yours faithfully,
FOI Team

We welcome correspondence in Welsh and will deal with Welsh and English correspondence to the same standards and timescales.
Croesewir gohebiaeth yn y Gymraeg a byddwn yn ymdrin â gohebiaeth Gymraeg a Saesneg i’r un safonau ac amserlenni

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. Please note also that there is no guarantee that this email or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted or amended.
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn mewn camgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r person a anfonodd yr e-bost ar unwaith. Hefyd, sylwer nad oes unrhyw sicrwydd nad yw'r e-bost hwn neu unrhyw ymgysylltiad yn rhydd o firws ac nad yw chwaith wedi'i ryng-gipio na'i newid.

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Colin L. Hughes left an annotation ()

What date was the Parking Charge Notice issued on, please

David Michael,

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Internal review of Freedom of Information request - NPT Council - Land Ownership.

I refer to your email of the 10th March 2017 [11.43] requesting a review of the response to your Freedom of Information request submitted to the Council on the 12th January 2017. I would inform you that your request for a review has been sent to myself as the Monitoring Officer of Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council being the designated officer within the Council authorised to conduct such reviews.

Having read your original request and subsequent correspondence between yourself and the Council's Environment Directorate, I am satisfied that the reply issued by that directorate is both a constructive and informative response to your request. Amongst other matters it clearly explains to you that the Council does not need to be a "landowner" of the land upon which there is a road in order such roads to be subject to Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 orders [i.e. traffic/parking orders] and for it to enforce Parking Contravention Notices [PCNs] in respect of those roads.

I am satisfied that the response which was sent to you by the Environment Directorate's officers has appropriately dealt with your request in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or indeed the Environmental Information Regulations if the request were dealt with under those regulations. Accordingly, I would respectfully inform you that I do not uphold your complaint that the Authority has not dealt with your request in accordance with its obligations under that Act.

I would also inform you that if you are dissatisfied with this response and wish to take this matter further you are at liberty to appeal against my decision to the Information Commissioner's Office; whose contact address is :

Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire
SK9 5AF.

Email: [email address]

Yours faithfully,

Head of Legal Services

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Pat James (Account suspended)

Dear David Michael, a civil action requires that a man or woman makes a claim against a man or woman. A council is a corporation, i.e. a dead entity with no life which is incapable of making any sort of claim in law. If you are maintaining that a council can make a civil claim in common law than that is a misuse of the justice system. All I have asked is that you provide the identity of the man or woman who makes a claim in the context of a PCN. If you cannot provide this then your whole process is fraudulent under common law.

Yours sincerely,

Pat James

Colin L. Hughes left an annotation ()

Pat, that statement of yours is patently untrue

Are you an. O level standard Law student?

Pat James (Account suspended) left an annotation ()

Perhaps if Colin L Hughes knew a little about the law he would not make such stupid comments and be a little less parsimonious in his outlook.

David Michael,

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am afraid that you are incorrect in your understanding of whether a local authority can be a party to a civil action. The law creates a number of different types of body with separate legal personality, local authorities being one of them.

I'm afraid that there seemed to be a lot of websites which purport to comment on the law and mislead members of public about their legal position for example that there is no such thing as statute law, only common law or that local authorities are responsible for the debts of their residents.
David Michael
 
Head of Legal Services/Pennaeth Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council/ Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot Tel/Ffôn: 01639 763368

Please do not print this e-mail unless absolutely necessary - SAVE PAPER
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. Please note also that there is no guarantee that this email or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted or amended.

Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn mewn camgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r person a anfonodd yr e-bost ar unwaith. Hefyd, sylwer nad oes unrhyw sicrwydd nad yw'r e-bost hwn neu unrhyw ymgysylltiad yn rhydd o firws ac nad yw chwaith wedi'i ryng-gipio na'i newid.

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