Narrative and design details for Crompton Moor
Dear Sir or Madam,
At a recent meeting [on 27.11.2008], the Council discussed issues surrounding Crompton Moor, and the feasibility of opening up the Crompton Moor to other activities. It was clearly stated at this meeting that nothing was "concrete", and that the meeting was being held only to guage public opinion.
However, the OMBC website 'Parks and Countryside Programme of Works' schedules out Crompton Moor for 'Environmental improvements to countryside/moorland area' as being 'In Design'.
Please provide narrative and/or design details of what it is that OMBC intend for Crompton Moor, at your earliest convenience.
Yours faithfully,
Edward J Fulton
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Dear Mr Fulton,
I acknowledge with thanks your request for information received at this
office on 09/01/2009 regarding Crompton Moor. This request has been
considered as a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Your request may take up to 20 working days to be processed, and has been
passed onto our Parks and Countryside section.
Please be advised that if an exemption applies to the information that you
have requested, the statutory period may be exceeded in accordance with
the provisions of that Act.
Should you have any queries, please contact me on the number below.
Yours Sincerely
Nicola Jumeaux
Development Support Officer
Council
Level 13 Civic Centre
0161 770 3307
[2][email address]
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Dear Mr Fulton,
Thank you for your request for information on the Crompton Moor project.
You are correct in your recollection that at the Crompton Moor User Group
(CMUG) meeting of the 27 November 2008 officers of the Council (myself
included) did state that none of the ideas discussed that evening were
"set in concrete"; the setting up of the CMUG is an initial part of a
consultation process to consider the potential to develop the said ideas.
The term "in design" on the Parks and Countryside Programme of Works has
been used to denote work stages (based on the standard service work stages
recognised by the Landscape Institute and the Royal Institute of British
Architects) from inception of a project to the completion of the tender
action and contract preparation ie the process up to beginning operations
on site. In the instance of Crompton Moor the Council is still at the very
early stages of the design process - at feasibility whereby studies are
undertaken, including community engagement, to determine which ideas for
the whole of the Moor, if any, are feasible. At the moment there are no
detailed proposals that I can provide for you as none have yet been
determined. Therefore I have requested that the Programme of Works be
updated to denote that the project is at the feasibility stage.
Further we will now look to develop a categorisation nomenclature for the
Programme of Works to better express where the team is at with a given
project.
I hope this information clarifies the situation for you but please contact
me if you need to discuss further.
Kind regards,
Richard
Richard Vink
Principal Greenspace Development Officer
Alexandra Park Offices, Kings Road, Oldham, OL8 2BH.
t: 0161 770 4086 f: 0161 770 3069 m: 07801204820
e:[email address]
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As a public body, the Council may be required to disclose this email [or
any response to it] under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, unless the
information in it is covered by one of the exemptions in the Act.
This note confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence
of computer viruses, however we advise that in keeping with good IT
practice the recipient should ensure that the e-mail together with any
attachments are virus free by running a virus scan themselves. We cannot
accept any responsibility for any damage or loss caused by software
viruses.
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Dear Richard Vink,
Thank you for your response of 13 January 2009.
Since your response an annotation has been added by Gary Waidson, which appears to have not received a reply; please could you ensure that this is added to the agenda for next Tuesday's meeting.
On a more serious note, I would refer you to an article in the 5 February 2009 edition of The Oldham Observer, where it states that: -
"It was reported that funding is available for the cycle trail from the Big Lottery programme and that it is now hoped that, subject to final approval, construction can start this summer".
This is clearly in complete contradiction to your reply, where you stated that: -
"In the instance of Crompton Moor the Council is still at the very early stages of the design process...".
Furthermore, you also state that: -
"At the moment there are no detailed proposals that I can provide you as none have yet been determined".
In view of the above statements made by you, please could you therefore explain as to why The Oldham Observer has reported the above and can report the following statement: -
"A potential trail has already been marked out on the moor...".
In view of the statement(s) previously made by you in respect of "no detailed proposals", I am at a loss as to how it can be reported [from a recent meeting of the local area committee] that a trail has already been marked out on the moor.
Again, and in view of the above contradictory statements and/or reportage, I would respectfully request that the Freedom of Information request dated 9 January 2009, your response of 13 January 2009, annotation of 27 January 2009 and this further reply dated 12 February 2009 be included in the agenda for next Tuesday's meeting for further discussion and explanation by the Council and/or your goodself.
Yours sincerely,
Edward J Fulton
Thank you for your email Mr Fulton,
You will pleased to note that there will be an item on the agenda for the
Crompton Moor User Group (CMUG) meeting next week, 17 February 2009 (as
mentioned in Laura Vayro's email of 9 February 2009 requesting agenda
items for consideration) that will relay progress on the development work
we propose on the Moor under the felling licence and utilising funding
allocated from the Big Lottery Fund 'Adventures in Play' programme .
In relation to your "more serious note", whether the quotes you select
from my email are contradictions is determined by your definition of
'detailed proposals' as well as whether you view the selected quotes in
isolation or as part of the whole email. With regard to the definition, in
accordance with the LI/RIBA standard service work stages 'detailed
proposals' equate to drawing(s) and/or specification showing details of
materials, techniques and standards of workmanship. At this stage of the
Crompton Moor project I have considered and marked out a line on a plan
(as shown by a black dashed line over the Whitesides plantation on the A4
plan I freely distributed at the CMUG meeting on 27 November 2008) and
literally walked the line through the plantation to see if it would be an
appropriate location for a sustainable and managed trail to replace the
existing hand-made trail. There are no details of materials, techniques or
standards of workmanship at the moment.
If I could continue the quote you have extracted from my email: "In the
instance of Crompton Moor the Council is still at the very early stages of
the design process - at feasibility whereby studies are undertaken,
including community engagement, to determine which ideas for the whole of
the Moor, if any, are feasible. At the moment there are no detailed
proposals that I can provide for you as none have yet been determined" it
is clear that these relate to the Moor as a whole and still stand true. We
are very much at the outset of the feasibility study and planned community
engagement, including meetings of CMUG, will be integral to that
feasibility study.
I am afraid I am not familiar with the Oldham Observer (an article very
similar is found in the Oldham Advertiser) but the above explains the
extracts you have quoted.
Finally with regard to "...an annotation has been added by Gary Waidson,
which appears to not have received a reply" it has only come to my
attention through your email. Having now read it on the 'whatdotheyknow'
website, in response to the first part of the annotation the Council
secured the funding by a bid to the BIG Lottery which comprised a schedule
of projects that made the 'Adventures in Play' programme. For this bidding
regime BIG Lottery required, in essence, a progamme of named projects with
a brief description of the intended type of physical outcome and an
overall budget to undertake the works. No detailed drawing, plans or
specifications were required. I had intended and will bring along a copy
of the bid document to the CMUG meeting on 17 February 2009 for attendees
to browse. In response to the second part of the annotation this whole
reply and my original email negates the assertion of 'rubber-stamping' the
project and indeed CMUG has a genuine and important role in continued
community engagement.
I hope this information clarifies the situation for you but please contact
me if you need to discuss further before the CMUG meeting.
Kind regards,
Richard
Richard Vink
Principal Greenspace Development Officer
Alexandra Park Offices, Kings Road, Oldham, OL8 2BH.
t: 0161 770 4086 f: 0161 770 3069
e:[email address].
Dear Richard Vink,
Apologies, but my reference to 'The Oldham Observer' should indeed have read 'The Oldham Advertiser'.
With regards to the remainder of your response, I do not consider that you have appropriately addressed the issues which I have raised.
I trust that the presentation by the Council at this evening's meeting will address the issues referred to in our correspondences, as well as the Council's progress of the feasibility study, and any other progress of whatever nature in respect of Crompton Moor.
I look forward to seeing you this evening.
Yours sincerely,
Edward J Fulton
Gary Waidson left an annotation ()
It saddens me to see that Mark McClure of Try-Cycles Ltd. has descended to making ill informed personal attacks against me in such a public arena. It forces me to defend myself and my reputation from allegations that are bordering upon libellous.
I will deal with his posting point by point.
It is our democratic right to question plans put forward by our council and the need to do so is raised as we have been presented with a scheme that is being hastily implemented without due and proper scrutiny by the public at large. This seems to be, as is often the case, because there is a race to spend some money from the budget before it is lost. The plan will surely change the facilities at Crompton Moor but there are people who do not necessarily believe that such changes, in their current form, constitute “improvements”.
As the council is an elected body, it has a duty to consider the opinions of all user groups on Crompton Moor before proceeding with these plans, and that open and transparent debate is what we hope to achieve.
If Mr. McClure fails to understand that perhaps it is because he and Try-Cycles Ltd. has a vested interest in seeing these plans proceed without opposition.
I can only assume that his attempt to brand me as a hypocrite is an ill advised attempt at character assassination.
It is true that I run a number of websites, some promote my busy education business working with over 6000 school children a year, some promote my landscape photography that has won numerous regional and national awards, one of them does indeed promote bushcraft and wilderness skills.
The Ravenlore site and indeed bushcraft in general promotes minimum impact practices, so it is hard to see how my site or activities could possibly relate to the destructive practices in the Whiteside plantation that I myself alerted the council to, and were at the time of my discovery, being perpetrated by two cyclists.
To imply that I have been building shelters on the moor is both a flagrant distortion of the truth and completely at odds with the material and information on my websites. To further suggest that I tell people how to light fires on the moor is an outrageous lie, and one I am considering passing on to my solicitor.
Mr McClure’s next rant ,“Why are you wasting the time of the majority of users of Crompton Moor and the resources of our town council in your selfish endeavour to halt any plans for recreational development of the area?”, seems to be devoid of any reason whatsoever.
I was informed by Mr Vink at one of our meetings, that the council has not made a demographic study of the visitors to the moor. This is unfortunate because it would without any doubt prove that the majority of users of the moor are dog walkers by a huge margin.
We did listen at the CMUG meetings and what we heard was a plan that completely ignored the majority users, because the council has never once asked us what facilities we want.
“You are narrow minded unsocial people with a chip on your shoulder in relation to any change.
This Moor belongs to the people of Oldham who in time will have an excellant facility to enjoy, hopefully without bigots such as yourselves.” Here we have another slightly illiterate rant.
A “bigot” is defined as “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” As far as I can see, there seems to be only one person who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion in this sorry episode and, as is often the case, I feel this accusation does more to reflect on Mr McClure’s character than anything else.
If he had bothered to properly acquaint himself with the information contained in my websites, instead of trying to use that information to discredit my perfectly valid concerns, he would realize that I have been calling for constructive changes to the management of the moor for some time.
I have also been regularly picking litter up, reporting criminal activity and caring for Crompton Moor in a number of positive ways for many years.
Meanwhile I have watched this story develop from the early days when the cyclists broke down walls and cut trees to build their unofficial trails through the woods. Now I am relieved to say that most of that destructive behaviour has ceased, but not all, and so far no guarantees have been made that it will not resume in the future.
In general most of the cycle riders are responsible in their behaviour just as most dog walkers are, that was never an issue.
If the council had bothered to ask us what facilities we wanted they might be surprised to hear that we would like more dog waste bins so that the dog waste issue could be addressed.
“Lets hope that Oldham Council utilise the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 which gives the Council the power to enforce Dog Control Orders where appropriate. This range of controls spans from enforcing that dogs are kept on leads in certain areas through to banning them completely from a chosen site.”
Now we get to the crux of the matter. Far from the assurances that have been given in open meetings, here we have a key member of Try-Cycles Ltd. an organisation pushing the council hard for this plan to be implemented, stating publicly and on the record, that he would like to see the council ban dog walkers or force them to keep their dogs on a lead on Crompton Moor.
I could not conclude this reply any better than Mr. McClure himself. “THERE ARE SELFISH, IDIOTIC PEOPLE IN ALL USER GROUPS.” But I would sadly have to conclude that some are more selfish and more idiotic than others.
Marian Herod left an annotation ()
I was shocked and disgusted by Mark Mcclure's annotation of 22 February 09. It was childish and of no use whatsover in resolving the issues concerning Crompton Moor. It was indeed libellous and Gary Waidson deserves an unreserved apology.
from Marian Herod (Dog walker who also respects the moor and the people who use it.)
Francis Irving left an annotation ()
Mark McClure has asked that we remove his two annotations from this request, and we have done so.
Mark Mcclure left an annotation ()
As requested, to find out more about mountain biking on Crompton Moor please visit www.northwestriders.net
or to leave a comment regarding mountain biking join up to and leave a message on our forum www.northwestriders.net/SMF/index.php
Marian Herod left an annotation ()
ref: Mark McClure and quote "We got stuck straight in and soon had the place back to how it was before."
The litter pick up was good - but how can you sat that the place is back to how it was before? There is an implication here that you removed the trail!
BUT - the ramps and trails are still there! Very large ramps are still in place!
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Gary Waidson left an annotation ()
I would be interested to know how funding has already been "secured" from the Big Lottery Fund for this project if plans have not been finalised?
It seems to me that the Crompton Moor User Group is just being used just to rubber stamp this project rather than being used as a proper public consultation.