Nantporth CIC / Bangor City Fc & Facilities owned by Bangor City Council

Waiting for an internal review by Bangor City Council, Gwynedd of their handling of this request.

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Bangor City Council, Gwynedd,

I make this request for information under the FOI Procedure.

If for any reason you are unable to answer any of my questions due to legislation rather than disregarding my whole FOI i would be grateful if you could answer those questions that are not contrary to any policy, this obviously saves me compiling another FOI and effectively saving on the tax payers purse.

1) The land whereby the football club is situated from the top gates i believe is owned by Bangor City council please can you confirm this ?

2) Which part of this land is leased out and to which company ?

3) When was the said lease made and was this agreed in full council please include minutes of the said meeting ?

4) Within the lease does it have a section whereby the lessee can sub let to another party ie Nantporth CIC To Bangor City FC ?

5) Was / Is there any special condition placed upon the Lessee to notify the council prior to subleasing ? and was this carried out ? if so by who, by how and when ?

6) Is the lease held by bangor city council a lease which consists that the lessee is responsible for full repair ?

7) Is the lessee responsible for insuring the facility and what condition are placed upon the leese for this ?

I look forward to receiving your response.

Yours faithfully,
Chris

I acknowledge safe receipt.
There are a lot of points raised here so it may take some time to research and there are commercial sensitivities to more than one company which are exempt under the legislation.
I will reply as soon as I am able to.

Cofion/regards
Ian Jones ACIS, B A (Hons), CiLCA
Clerc y Dref / Town Clerk
Swyddog Cyllid / Finance Officer
Cyngor Dinas Bangor / City of Bangor Council
[email address]
http://bangorcitycouncil.goc.wales 01248 352421
http://www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales/H...
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw atodiad iddo yn gyfrinachol ac fe'i bwriedir ar gyfer y sawl a enwir arno yn unig. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the named recipient only.
Pan fyddwch yn cysylltu â ni
Bydd yr wybodaeth a roddwch (gwybodaeth bersonol e.e. enw, cyfeiriad, cyfeiriad e-bost, rhif ffôn, sefydliad) yn cael ei phrosesu a’i storio i’n galluogi ni i gysylltu â chi ac ymateb i’ch gohebiaeth, rhoi gwybodaeth a/neu fynediad i’n cyfleusterau a’n gwasanaethau. Ni fydd eich gwybodaeth bersonol yn cael ei rhannu na’i rhoi i unrhyw drydydd parti. Fodd bynnag gall eich gwybodaeth gael ei chyhoeddi yn y parth cyhoeddus oes yw’n destun trafodaeth i’r Cyngor, cysylltwch â ni i gael gwybod mwy.
Am ragor o wybodaeth gweler ein hysbysiad preifatrwydd llawn ar ein gwefan www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
When you contact us
The information you provide (personal information e.g. name, address, email address, phone number, organisation) will be processed and stored to enable us to contact you and respond to your correspondence, provide information and/or access our facilities and services. Your personal information will be not shared or provided to any other third party. Your information may however be published in the public domain if you require the Council to discuss please contact us.
For further information please see our full privacy notice on our website www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales

show quoted sections

Town Clerk,

Chris

I respond to your queries as follows
The Lease in favour of the Nantporth CIC and dated the 27th January 2012, is in fact a public document which can be accessed via the Land Registry website on payment of the appropriate fee. therefore most of the information is therefore accessible and outside of the scope of FOI Title Numbers CYM262428 (the freehold title) and CYM602019 (the leasehold title).

1) The land whereby the football club is situated from the top gates I believe is owned by Bangor City council please can you confirm this ?
See above

2) Which part of this land is leased out and to which company ?
See above

3) When was the said lease made and was this agreed in full council please include minutes of the said meeting ?
Minute 234/10 Planning and Amenities Committee 18/04/11, endorsed by Full Council 09/05/11.

4) Within the lease does it have a section whereby the lessee can sub-let to another party i.e. Nantporth CIC To Bangor City FC ?
Yes Clause 2.15.2

5) Was / Is there any special condition placed upon the Lessee to notify the council prior to subleasing ? and was this carried out ? if so by who, by how and when ?
See above

6) Is the lease held by Bangor city council a lease which consists that the lessee is responsible for full repair ?
See above

7) Is the lessee responsible for insuring the facility and what condition are placed upon the leese for this ?
See above, details should be in the Sub-lease between Nantporth CIC and BCFC

Cofion/regards
Ian Jones ACIS, B A (Hons), CiLCA
Clerc y Dref / Town Clerk
Swyddog Cyllid / Finance Officer
Cyngor Dinas Bangor / City of Bangor Council
[email address]
http://bangorcitycouncil.goc.wales 01248 352421
http://www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales/H...
Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw atodiad iddo yn gyfrinachol ac fe'i bwriedir ar gyfer y sawl a enwir arno yn unig. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the named recipient only.
Pan fyddwch yn cysylltu â ni
Bydd yr wybodaeth a roddwch (gwybodaeth bersonol e.e. enw, cyfeiriad, cyfeiriad e-bost, rhif ffôn, sefydliad) yn cael ei phrosesu a’i storio i’n galluogi ni i gysylltu â chi ac ymateb i’ch gohebiaeth, rhoi gwybodaeth a/neu fynediad i’n cyfleusterau a’n gwasanaethau. Ni fydd eich gwybodaeth bersonol yn cael ei rhannu na’i rhoi i unrhyw drydydd parti. Fodd bynnag gall eich gwybodaeth gael ei chyhoeddi yn y parth cyhoeddus oes yw’n destun trafodaeth i’r Cyngor, cysylltwch â ni i gael gwybod mwy.
Am ragor o wybodaeth gweler ein hysbysiad preifatrwydd llawn ar ein gwefan www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
When you contact us
The information you provide (personal information e.g. name, address, email address, phone number, organisation) will be processed and stored to enable us to contact you and respond to your correspondence, provide information and/or access our facilities and services. Your personal information will be not shared or provided to any other third party. Your information may however be published in the public domain if you require the Council to discuss please contact us.
For further information please see our full privacy notice on our website www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales

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Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Town Clerk,

Thank you for the information received to date. However I have a couple of points id like to raise.

Please can you supply me with a copy if the said minutes "Minute 234/10 Planning and Amenities Committee 18/04/11, endorsed by Full Council 09/05/11."

Also can you tell me why there is a period of 8 months from dating of this lease from endorsement from. the councillors.

Which councillors sat in both meetings ?

Regards

Chris

Yours sincerely,

Christopher James O'Neal

Town Clerk,

Please see extracts from Minutes below.
Re the time lag - presumably the legal and construction matters delayed this as well as the set up of the new company. These things take time and the Town Clerk had power to act so no need to go back to Council. As I was not here then I can on speculate.

CITY OF BANGOR COUNCIL

Minutes of the Planning and Amenities Committee held at the Penrhyn Hall, Ffordd Gwynedd, Bangor on Monday 18th April, 2011 at 6.50 p.m.

PRESENT :- Her Worship The Mayor, Councillor Mrs D Bulled MBE
The Deputy Mayor, Councillor E H Williams
Councillors :- D Hainge (Chairman)
E T Dogan D Llewelyn J M Martin
B Hughes D Madge Mrs C A Morris
Mrs S Humphreys Mrs J Marshall G H Roberts
John Wynn Jones R K Marshall Mrs K Thomas

Officer :- Mr Gwyn Hughes, Town Clerk
c) Farrar Road Stadium

The Town Clerk reminded Members that he had been given Powers to Act to commission the District Valuer to examine the developer’s amended proposal.

The District Valuer had now prepared his draft report and had indicated that he was happy with the developer’s suggestion and that he was reported that this would be a satisfactory transaction for the Council to enter into and that best value would be achieved in accordance with section 123 of the Local Government Act 1972.

The Town Clerk also reminded Members that he had been given Powers to Act to discuss with the Developers and the Football Club a possible amendment to the training pitch area on the upper part on the Stadium site. He reported that these discussions had now been concluded and that all parties were in agreement as to the best way forward.

The Town reported that he was happy that these amendments would be in the best interest of the Council as landlord for the site.

Accordingly it was RESOLVED to grant the Town Clerk Powers to Act to proceed with concluding the agreement with the sale of the Farrar Road land to the Developers along the lines suggested by the District Valuer and to incorporate the amendments discussed with the developers and Football Club as far as the practice pitch areas were concerned.

It was further RESOLVED to give the Town Clerk Powers to Act to contact a surveyor to draft out the terms of the lease for letting the site on a long term basis to the Football Club as previously agreed by the Council.

PAGE 1

CITY OF BANGOR COUNCIL

Minutes of the Annual General Meeting held at the Penrhyn Hall, Ffordd Gwynedd, Bangor on Monday 9th May 2011 at 6.00 p.m.

PRESENT :- Her Worship The Mayor Councillor Mrs D Bulled MBE
The Deputy Mayor, Councillor Huw Williams
Councillors E T Dogan John Wynn Jones R K Marshall
Mrs J Forsyth D Llewelyn J M Martin
D Hainge W Lovelock G A Roberts
Bryn Hughes D Madge G H Roberts
Mrs S Humphreys Mrs J Marshall Mrs K Thomas

Officers :- Mr Gwyn Hughes, Town Clerk
Mr Abdul Barazzi, Macebearer

10/11 MINUTES OF PLANNING AND AMENITIES COMMITTEE

RESOLVED : that the Minutes of the Planning and Amenities Committee held on the 18th April 2011 be confirmed as a correct record and signed by the Chairman.

Cofion/regards
Ian Jones ACIS, B A (Hons), CiLCA
Clerc y Dref / Town Clerk
Cyngor Dinas Bangor / City of Bangor Council
e-bost / e-mail: [email address]
Tel: 01248 352 421
Web: http://bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
http://www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales/H...
Pan fyddwch yn cysylltu â ni
Bydd yr wybodaeth a roddwch (gwybodaeth bersonol e.e. enw, cyfeiriad, cyfeiriad e-bost, rhif ffôn, sefydliad) yn cael ei phrosesu a’i storio i’n galluogi ni i gysylltu â chi ac ymateb i’ch gohebiaeth, rhoi gwybodaeth a/neu fynediad i’n cyfleusterau a’n gwasanaethau. Ni fydd eich gwybodaeth bersonol yn cael ei rhannu na’i rhoi i unrhyw drydydd parti. Fodd bynnag gall eich gwybodaeth gael ei chyhoeddi yn y parth cyhoeddus oes yw’n destun trafodaeth i’r Cyngor, cysylltwch â ni i gael gwybod mwy.
Am ragor o wybodaeth gweler ein hysbysiad preifatrwydd llawn ar ein gwefan www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
When you contact us
The information you provide (personal information e.g. name, address, email address, phone number, organisation) will be processed and stored to enable us to contact you and respond to your correspondence, provide information and/or access our facilities and services. Your personal information will be not shared or provided to any other third party. Your information may however be published in the public domain if you require the Council to discuss please contact us.
For further information please see our full privacy notice on our website www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales

show quoted sections

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Town Clerk,

Thank you so much for the information recieved so far, i would be grateful if you could just clarify a few points.

Which Surveyor was used by the then town clerk in drawing up the lease between Bangor City council and the tenants ? Im assuming a surveyor would of invoiced you for time in preparing such document ?

The minutes of the meeting are quiet plain and straight forward, the Council gave the Town Clerk powers to act to draft up a lease between Bangor City Council And the Football Club. The council would of been aware at this point who the football where. Can you confirm why the town clark nor this council concluded what was instructed in these minutes by setting up a lease for the football club ? when in fact the lease was prepared for a company (nantporth CIC) that had only been in existance for 1 month with no previous trading history ?

What is the procedure for the City Council in respect of due dilligence when leasing out/renting property to ensure the tenants are fit and proper ?

Whilst i understand some of these question maybe hard for you to persoanlly answer being new to the position, as a member of the community i seek transparancy from my local council and currently i beleive that these transactions cause me concern, therefore i am hereby allowing every oppertunity for the council to furnish me with the correct Information and to be transparent in their answers before i formalise a complaint to the ombudsman.

Yours sincerely,

Christopher James O'Neal

Town Clerk,

Survey was completed by the District Valuation Service

Any lease with the club would have been very short term ie 12 months, therefore it would be a simple assumption that there was no ulterior motive and in the public's interest to enter into an agreement with the CIC as:-
'a community interest company is a business with primary social objectives whose surpluses are principally reinvested for that purpose in the business or in the community, rather than being driven by the need to maximise profit. By using business solutions to achieve public good, it is believed that CICs have a distinct and valuable role to play in helping create a strong, sustainable and socially inclusive economy.'

Due diligence was that a lease in these circumstances would be in the public interest and of the City Council.
Given the previous history and financial difficulties of the football club, it certainly didn't have a good track record as a tenant of the Council (at Farrar Road) and a long term lease was never on the table for the club. The details in Lease spelt out the rest.

Cofion/regards
Ian Jones ACIS, B A (Hons), CiLCA
Clerc y Dref / Town Clerk
Cyngor Dinas Bangor / City of Bangor Council
e-bost / e-mail: [email address]
Tel: 01248 352 421
Web: http://bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
http://www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales/H...
Pan fyddwch yn cysylltu â ni
Bydd yr wybodaeth a roddwch (gwybodaeth bersonol e.e. enw, cyfeiriad, cyfeiriad e-bost, rhif ffôn, sefydliad) yn cael ei phrosesu a’i storio i’n galluogi ni i gysylltu â chi ac ymateb i’ch gohebiaeth, rhoi gwybodaeth a/neu fynediad i’n cyfleusterau a’n gwasanaethau. Ni fydd eich gwybodaeth bersonol yn cael ei rhannu na’i rhoi i unrhyw drydydd parti. Fodd bynnag gall eich gwybodaeth gael ei chyhoeddi yn y parth cyhoeddus oes yw’n destun trafodaeth i’r Cyngor, cysylltwch â ni i gael gwybod mwy.
Am ragor o wybodaeth gweler ein hysbysiad preifatrwydd llawn ar ein gwefan www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
When you contact us
The information you provide (personal information e.g. name, address, email address, phone number, organisation) will be processed and stored to enable us to contact you and respond to your correspondence, provide information and/or access our facilities and services. Your personal information will be not shared or provided to any other third party. Your information may however be published in the public domain if you require the Council to discuss please contact us.
For further information please see our full privacy notice on our website www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales

show quoted sections

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Town Clerk,

Thank you for your response.

I respectfully understand the meaning of the cic and understand you have excelled in pointing out the meaning of the CIC
"a community interest company is a business with primary social objectives whose surpluses are principally reinvested for that purpose in the business or in the community, rather than being driven by the need to maximise profit. By using business solutions to achieve public good, it is believed that CICs have a distinct and valuable role to play in helping create a strong, sustainable and socially inclusive economy.'"

some people would obviously believe this to be true, however in a further paragraph you state "Due diligence was that a lease in these circumstances would be in the public interest and of the City Council".

Can you confirm that this was agreed by the Councillors ? and if so in what meeting ? please supply records of such because without records im unsure how you as a newly recruited town clerk could answer with that answer you have given.

Furthermore Whilst i understand your paragraph "Given the previous history and financial difficulties of the football club, it certainly didn't have a good track record as a tenant of the Council (at Farrar Road) and a long term lease was never on the table for the club. The details in Lease spelt out the rest" Surely Due diligence would of also been used before issuing the lease to the CIC company for whom you and i the director of the CIC was in fact also the director of the Football club.

Therefore i have to ask if the tenant Bangor City FC who is being lead by Chairman DP JONES at the time didnt have a good track record as you so put it surely any council with the public interest at heart wouldnt of issued a lease to a property with such high value to another company also being lead by the Same person Mr DP Jones. Can you confirm why this happened ?

Also from your response, can you once again clarify the short team lease that bangor city would have been offered as i am well aware of the discussions of bangor city fc having a new home before the sale of the land to developers.

Mr town Clerk i have to state this publicly the whole scenario now appears to be riddled with devious methods of what did and didnt happen but one thing we can prove the council never undertook the instruction that was issued by the sitting council in April 2011 to issue a lease to Bangor City Football Club. This in my opinion as a member of the public is a breech of the constitution of the council and as the sitting town clerk i urge you to report the matter further, before i go public with my findings.

Regards
Chris

CC Wales Audit Office
CC One Voice Wales

Yours sincerely,

Christopher James O'Neal

Town Clerk,

Mr O'Neal

Your opinions and assumptions are your own and not necessarily correct.
This trail of enquiries behind the FOI legislation has become personal, repeated and vexatious and therefore under the legislation
I formally refuse to respond any further.

Cofion/regards
Ian Jones ACIS, B A (Hons), CiLCA
Clerc y Dref / Town Clerk
Cyngor Dinas Bangor / City of Bangor Council
e-bost / e-mail: [email address]
Tel: 01248 352 421
Web: http://bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
http://www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales/H...
Pan fyddwch yn cysylltu â ni
Bydd yr wybodaeth a roddwch (gwybodaeth bersonol e.e. enw, cyfeiriad, cyfeiriad e-bost, rhif ffôn, sefydliad) yn cael ei phrosesu a’i storio i’n galluogi ni i gysylltu â chi ac ymateb i’ch gohebiaeth, rhoi gwybodaeth a/neu fynediad i’n cyfleusterau a’n gwasanaethau. Ni fydd eich gwybodaeth bersonol yn cael ei rhannu na’i rhoi i unrhyw drydydd parti. Fodd bynnag gall eich gwybodaeth gael ei chyhoeddi yn y parth cyhoeddus oes yw’n destun trafodaeth i’r Cyngor, cysylltwch â ni i gael gwybod mwy.
Am ragor o wybodaeth gweler ein hysbysiad preifatrwydd llawn ar ein gwefan www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales
When you contact us
The information you provide (personal information e.g. name, address, email address, phone number, organisation) will be processed and stored to enable us to contact you and respond to your correspondence, provide information and/or access our facilities and services. Your personal information will be not shared or provided to any other third party. Your information may however be published in the public domain if you require the Council to discuss please contact us.
For further information please see our full privacy notice on our website www.bangorcitycouncil.gov.wales

show quoted sections

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Bangor City Council, Gwynedd,

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to request an internal review of Bangor City Council, Gwynedd's handling of my FOI request 'Nantporth CIC / Bangor City Fc & Facilities owned by Bangor City Council'.

The questions asked are asked by me personally and although i have some knowledge of people involved i would like the answers to the questions as i beleive hiding them could only show that your not a transparent council at all.

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n...

Yours faithfully,

Christopher James O'Neal

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Bangor City Council, Gwynedd,

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to request an internal review of Bangor City Council, Gwynedd's handling of my FOI request 'Nantporth CIC / Bangor City Fc & Facilities owned by Bangor City Council'.

2nd and final request for internal review.

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n...

Yours faithfully,

Christopher James O'Neal

Christopher James O'Neal

Dear Bangor City Council, Gwynedd,

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to you as a 2nd request for internal review of Bangor City Council, Gwynedd's handling of my FOI request 'Nantporth CIC / Bangor City Fc & Facilities owned by Bangor City Council'.

[ GIVE DETAILS ABOUT YOUR COMPLAINT HERE ]

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n...

Yours faithfully,

Christopher James O'Neal