230408005 LiPEG Minutes Nov 30 2022.pdf

Public User Engagement
_________________________________________________________
Minutes
Litigants in Person Engagement Group
Wednesday 30 November 2022, 16:00-18:00

Attendees:
Members: Mr Justice Knowles, Lauren Van Staden (HMCTS), Miriam Davidson (HMCTS),
Tony Pointer (HMCTS), Amanda Finlay (Law for Life), Ellen Lefley (Justice), Meg Van
Rooyen (Money Advice Trust), Amy Shaw (Judicial Office), Beth Kirkland (Law For Life),
Martha de la Roche (Access to Justice) Sarah Telford (Citizens Advice), Sirintiya Booth-
Roberts (Access to Justice), Alison Lamb (RCJ Advice), Karen Sng-Sugden (Support
through Court), Mary Marvel (Law for Life), Paul Yates (Freshfields)
Other Attendees: Kim Worral (HMCTS), Keely Hollingworth (HMCTS), Sreya Pokkali
(HMCTS), Donna Beeson (HMCTS), Molly Blackburn (HMCTS), Faye Whates (HMCTS),
Emma Coleman (HMCTS), Lucy Astle-Fletcher (HMCTS), Angela Carpenter (HMCTS)
Apologies: Chilli Reid (Advice UK), Colin Moran (HMCTS), Nyree Scott (HMCTS), Nick
Goodwin (HMCTS)
Summary of Action and Recommendation Points

ID
Action
Owner
AP-62-22  Civil team to work with Advicenow to consider adding
Civil
their suite of guidance for Civil claims signposting
AP-63-22  PUE team to facilitate a demo of the OCMC service at an
Civil/PUE
engagement opportunity in the new year
AP-64-22  Civil Team to work with the Accessibility & Inclusion (A&I)
Civil
team and engage with PUE groups on signposting for
defendants when a Writ of Control is issued

AP-65-22  LiPEG members to supply additional signposting content,
LiPEG
which could be added to the Bailiff Vulnerability Toolkit
AP-66-22  A&I team to continue to engage with the sector as the
A&I
project progresses
AP-67-22  Members to get in touch with A&I team if they need a
LiPEG
demonstration of the support journey or to ask questions

AP-68-22  Members to feedback to Comms/PUE if anyone has
LiPEG
helped court users on the new divorce law and could
share this information with HMCTS

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Minutes

1
Welcome
Lauren van Staden welcomed members to the meeting.
2
Actions from Previous Meetings
2.1
Miriam gave apologies for the actions not being sent through. This was due to
unexpected sickness and leave absence
3.
Overview from the HMCTS Civil team
3.1
The Civil team presented to LiPEG and invited feedback from members.
3.2
Feedback from members was that they were impressed with the scope of the
project. Members said that this was an opportunity to make sure that the
direction orders are simplified where possible.
3.3
Members welcomed the signposting guidance and asked if it included the
AdviceNow suite of guidance on bringing civil claims.
3.4
Members were impressed with the percentage of cases going to mediation. A
question was asked about the financial limit and whether it was mandatory.
3.5
Faye Whates from the Civil team responded that the Ministry of Justice had
recently consulted on the proposal for automatic referral to mediation for
defended claims under £10,000. Responses are still being processed and the
Government will publish their response in due course. Mediation is currently
available for all defended claims under £10,000 where all parties agree to
mediate.
3.6
Meg Van Rooyen queried the timescale for the civil reform work in discovery
and design. The Civil team responded that, for the enforcement and bulk
claims project, there was a lot of work do which will be pushed into the next
financial year.
3.7
Meg asked if she could get involved with a demo of the complete system.
AP-62-22 Civil team to work with Advicenow to consider adding their suite of
guidance for Civil Claims signposting
AP-63-22: PUE team to facilitate a demo of the OCMC service at an engagement
opportunity in the new year
3.8
Members asked when the expansion of OCMC for claims over £10,000 would
happen. The Civil team said that this should happen towards the end of
March, but there was no definite date at this stage.
3.9
Members asked about the upload of evidence and when this would happen.
The Civil team responded that the currently plans were for around February
2023, but this could change.
3.10
Judge Knowles queried where the user satisfaction data of 95% came from.
Lauren replied that, within the digital journey, the feedback survey came after
the claim was issued. The HMCTS perception team was piloting a satisfaction

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survey at the end of a user’s journey within another service, to see if this was
a viable method that could be adopted across HMCTS.
3.11
Judge Knowles spoke about the bridge from a judgement to enforcement,
with the warrant of control being the next step after a judgement.
3.12
The Civil team spoke about work once a judgement had been granted and
about research on the landing page where people can understand their
options.
3.13
Amanda spoke about the possibility of making payments more affordable and
a payment schedule being built in.
3.14
Faye Whates (Civil team) responded that this tied into a couple of points and
the current three-month agreement between the court and defendant is an
informal arrangement. She spoke about the need to get the financial
statement right so it could be used by all.
3.15
Emma Coleman provided a short update from the insight team (from slide 10
of the slide deck) and Faye Whates provided a civil BAU enforcement update.
3.16
Meg congratulated the service on the introduction of the automated payment
line and asked if there would be any further developments especially for those
with mental health issues.
3.17
Meg added that the debt advice sector would like to work on the revisions to
Writs of Control.
3.18
Faye said that, as Civil was looking to improve the Writ of Control process,
the team would also look to improve signposting for defendants when a writ is
issued.
AP-64-22: Civil Team to work with the A&I team and engage with PUE groups on
signposting for defendants when a Writ of Control is issued
3.19
Faye commented on the use of the phone line as part of the reforming
service. Lucy confirmed that an online option is being considered for the
reform project.
3.20
Amanda Finlay asked about Attachment of Earnings. The Civil team
responded that this enforcement option remained in use, although volumes
had decreased over the last 12 months.
3.21
Members asked if Charging Orders were in the pipeline to be digitised? The
Civil team responded that these orders were not within the scope of reform,
but it was something the team oversee and they were aware of the potential
for future improvements.
3.22
Judge Knowles referred to the importance of providing clear information and
signposting for claimants as well as defendants, as it was rare for Legal Aid to
be available for enforcement.
3.23
Angela Carpenter (Civil team) stated that the service appreciated the
members’ feedback on the work with the Determination of Means Working
Group. The team would continue to work the group and the HMCTS
Accessibility & Inclusion team.
3.24
Donna Beeson (Civil team) presented work on the Bailiff vulnerability toolkit to
members.

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3.25
Meg asked if the service was looking to signpost to agencies dealing with
debt. Donna responded that they would like to provide bailiffs with as much
information as possible. Meg mentioned some organisations which were not
charities providing free debt advice. One specific organisation was an
insolvency practitioner firm and not a charity providing a free helpline. The
Civil team confirmed that they would remove this organisation from the leaflet.
AP-65-22: LIPEG Members to supply additional signposting content, which could be added
to the Bailiff vulnerability toolkit

4.
Supporting our court and tribunal users
4.1
Sreya Pokkali, from the Accessibility & Inclusion (A&I) team, updated
members on work carried out to connect users to additional support. Where
needs cannot be met by HMCTS, a signposting strategy has been created to
connect users with external support services. The following material was
presented to members:
4.2
Judge Knowles fed back that the summary findings captured the current
situation very well. This was a world that needed to be moved away from e.g.
out of date leaflets and staff being concerned that signposting was giving
advice. Judge Knowles was encouraged because the presentation indicated
that the ethos of the HMCTS was changing.
4.3
He gave further feedback on the potential value of the presentation, referring
to the interface between HMCTS Staff at frontline line and public users.
4.4
He said that LiPEG was a living example of how relationships with agencies
to support litigants could be developed, as this support in this area was very
difficult to deliver.
4.5
Faye (Civil team) was invited to comment by Judge Knowles. Faye spoke
about the signposting work linking to work that has been carried out in
Enforcement giving staff additional guidance. Civil is currently carrying out
work on staff training and guidance on this at present and explained the
issues of having staff with differing levels of experience.
4.6
Amy spoke about the importance of having senior Judiciary on board with
signposting.
4.7
Amanda complimented the A&I Team on the thorough work they had carried
out. She suggested training court staff up with a range of resources that they
could use in courts.
4.8
Judge Knowles suggested the A&I team set up an offline meeting with Chilli
Reed, Alison Lamb and other leaders of front-line agencies to go through the
national resources that resources are available.
4.9
Amanda added that AdviceNow has a help directory with national
organisations within in it.
4.10
The A&I Team responded that they would continue to engage with the sector
to understand what national resources are available as the project
progresses.
AP-66-22 A&I team to continue to engage with the sector as the project progresses.

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4.11
Molly (A& I team) then moved on to speak about how, throughout Reform,
HMCTS had developed an improved way for users to request support, in
particular reasonable adjustments. She also covered how requests are
managed, and how support is provided.
4.12   Molly explained to members that when the solution is implemented, they are
expecting to have much better data on what user needs are and to get a
better managed process. It is hoped this will then allow services to better
understand user needs and areas of service delivery needing improvement.
4.13
Lauren suggested that members get in touch with Molly or the wider A&I team
if they would like a demonstration of the model or to ask questions.
AP-67-22: Members to get in touch with A&I team if they need a demonstration of the
support journey or to ask questions.

5.
Post Reform Engagement Model
5.1
Miriam Davidson presented the post reform engagement model for forums to
members and discussed how engagement between HMCTS and the third
sector would change as the service moves out of reform. The proposal is for a
strategic engagement group looking across HMCTS with Robin and Lauren
continuing as chairs. This group would be supplemented by four jurisdictional
public engagement groups will be established with practitioner level
membership.
5.2
Lauren acknowledged that there was a lot to share in a short amount of time,
but stressed the importance of the engagement from members and the
importance of continuing with it.
5.3
Judge Knowles stated the Public User Engagement event in February would
be an opportunity to reflect and remarked on the success that had been
achieved working with engagement groups.
6.
AOB
6.1
Miriam spoke about the request from HMCTS Comms for any organisation to
come forward if they can share any experiences from having helped court
users with the new divorce law introduced earlier in the year.
AP-68-22: Members to feedback to Comms/PUE if anyone has helped court users on
the new divorce law and could share this information with HMCTS.

6.2
Miriam spoke about the PUE Annual User Event that will be held in Petty France.
Originally the date for the event was 7 February but this has now been updated to
Wednesday 22 March. Tickets are available on Eventbrite.
6.3
The chairs closed the meeting and expressed their gratitude to members for
their sharing their commitment, time and experience.

Meeting Closed

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