Liability Orders
Dear Preston City Council,
In a previous FOI request you stated that PCC don't 'rent' a room at the Magistrates Court in relation to Council tax arrears/liability orders/summonses etc.
Can you categorically deny that the council do not hire, lease, rent, obtain, charter, utilise, occupy, make use of or borrow any space in the Preston Magistrates’ Court? Can you confirm that there is no exchange of funds from Preston City Council for council tax cases? I require crystal clarity with regard to these questions.
Yours faithfully,
David Phillips
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Preston City Council
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Dear Mr Phillips,
As per our previous reply for 'FOI 8693', please see the details below.
FOI 8693
1. Do Preston City Council hire Preston Magistrates Court for the granting of liability orders regarding unpaid council tax? No, we do not hire the Court, we reserve court time.
Please be advised, Preston City Council (PCC) pay £0.50 per summons for court time. For example, If PCC issue 1000 summonses, we pay £500.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
Thank you Simon for your quick response.
Can you please confirm what you mean by "we reserve court time" and can you also confirm that "reserving court time" doesn't involve hiring, leasing, renting, obtaining, chartering utilising. occupying making use of or borrowing any space in the Preston Magistrates’ Courts?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
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of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
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Preston City Council
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Reserving court time is Preston City Council (PCC) ringing or emailing the court to 'book a liability order court' on a specific date and time. The court then reserves a time slot to deal with the applications.
As previously advised, PCC pay £0.50 per summons for court time. For example, If PCC issue 1000 summonses, we pay £500.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
Thanks Simon,
I was referring to what happens when someone receives a council tax summons and (although there is no requirement to do so) actually chooses to turn up to Preston Magistrates court? Do they appear before the Magistrates or in a room acquired and staffed by members of the council?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
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of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
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Preston City Council
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Whether someone appears before the magistrates or speaks to a member of staff in a side room, it's up to the customer.
The customer has a right to speak to the magistrate, most people turn up to court because they want to arrange to pay.
The current procedure, decided by the court, is that any hearing is virtual and if someone specifically wants to address the magistrates then they make a specific appointment to do so.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
Thanks Simon for finally admitting the council DO/Have attend the court and acquired a room to use to speak with alleged debtors.
On arrival for the magistrate's court hearing, are customers initially offered the choice to either speak in a room with council officials or appear before the Magistrates in court, or isn't this choice mentioned to them?
If not...why not?
Can you confirm that Preston Magistrates Court is a 'criminal' court?
Is not paying council tax a 'crime'?
If so, which 'Laws' have been broken by the non payer?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
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of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
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Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
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Dear Mr Dear Mr Phillips,
Thank you for your email.
At present, under the current virtual hearing procedure, nobody should be attending the magistrates court. PCC do not know whether this will change in the future, however the magistrates current procedure is virtual.
Customers are advised of the current procedure if they turn up at court and paperwork issued with the summons advises customers what they need to do if they want to address the magistrates directly.
If someone specifically wants to address the magistrates, which is their right to do so, then they must make a specific appointment to do that in person.
They can of course address the magistrates by telephone on the court date, but they must have requested this before midday on the day before the court.
Regarding whether the magistrates court is a criminal court, this is something you should query directly with them. All/most criminal cases will start off in the magistrate's court, although depending on the magistrates' powers, some are referred to higher courts. PCC recommend contacting the court directly regarding what those powers are.
The answers to the latter two questions in your last email have already been provided, please refer to our previous correspondence.
Please contact PCC's Council Tax team on email, [email address], if you have any concerns or need assistance regarding the processes, the team will be more than happy to help.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
Thanks Simon,
We've spoken with various Magistrates courts at length and they all stated that Magistrates courts exist for 'criminal' proceedings only and not 'civil' matters.
As not paying council tax is a 'civil' matter and no laws are being broken nor crimes being committed, the Magistrates are merely acting as an administration service for the council.
Please provide us with a template of the summonses sent out to customers and also send out to debt enforcement agencies proving that a Summons has been ussued against an individual for non payment of CT.
Incidentally the Magistrates don't appear to hold copies themselves.
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
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of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
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Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
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for as long as is necessary. Further information can be found in the
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Please see attached a copy of the summons together with the accompanying information we send.
Regarding the latter question in your latest email, as we have previously advised in your Freedom of Information (FOI) request, there is no specific document that is sent to the Enforcement Agencies. The Enforcement Agency receive a list of accounts that have had a LO issued against them. Please refer to our previous full reply to your FOI.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
Thank you Simon.
The Summons you provided isn't a Magistrate's Court summons. It's been designed to resemble a court summons but I put it to you that it's a fake.
It actually states that it's the 'Council' that are summoning the person to the court.....Not the Magistrates.
1 Who produces these summonses?
2. Who fills out these summonses?
3. Who sends out these summonses?
4. Are the summonses stamped with a Magistrates Court seal?
5. Are they signed by the Magistrate?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
Thank you for your e-mail. If this is a valid request made under Freedom
of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
days.
Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Preston City Council is a Living Wage Employer.
Personal information will be kept safe and secure and will only be kept
for as long as is necessary. Further information can be found in the
Privacy Notice on the Council’s website
https://www.preston.gov.uk/thecouncil/da....
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Please see the details below.
1 Who produces these summonses? The Council
2. Who fills out these summonses? The Councils computer software populates the summons.
3. Who sends out these summonses? The Council
4. Are the summonses stamped with a Magistrates Court seal? No
5. Are they signed by the Magistrate? The complaint list is authorised by the magistrates court.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
According to Law a true Magistrates court summons Must carry an official court seal and be signed by a Magistrate.
Therefore why are the council sending out Fake summonses and committing fraud?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
Thank you for your e-mail. If this is a valid request made under Freedom
of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
days.
Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Preston City Council is a Living Wage Employer.
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Dear Preston City Council,
I've been waiting over a month for your response.
Yours faithfully,
David Phillips
Thank you for your e-mail. If this is a valid request made under Freedom
of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
days.
Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Preston City Council is a Living Wage Employer.
Personal information will be kept safe and secure and will only be kept
for as long as is necessary. Further information can be found in the
Privacy Notice on the Council’s website
https://www.preston.gov.uk/thecouncil/da....
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Thank you for your email.
Do you have a Freedom of Information reference number, I don't have any requests outstanding for you on my list.
If you have a question regarding Council Tax specifically, your request may be best directed to the Council Tax department. You can contact them by using the links/email addresses below.
Contact us for https://www.preston.gov.uk/article/3242/...
Or email [email address]
Kind regards,
Simon
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
You previously admitted that the council produces its own court summonses, without a court seal.
My response was...
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
According to Law a true Magistrates court summons Must carry an official court seal and be signed by a Magistrate.
Therefore why are the council sending out Fake summonses and committing fraud?
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
Thank you for your e-mail. If this is a valid request made under Freedom
of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
days.
Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Preston City Council is a Living Wage Employer.
Personal information will be kept safe and secure and will only be kept
for as long as is necessary. Further information can be found in the
Privacy Notice on the Council’s website
https://www.preston.gov.uk/thecouncil/da....
This message and any file or link transmitted with it is confidential,
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entity to which it is addressed. It may contain privileged information.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure, distribution or publication is
prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the
sender by reply email and destroy and delete the message and all copies
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Andrew Panrucker left an annotation ()
Yeah I've checked with the MOJ about mine and the MOJ data disclosure team confirm the court that allegedly prescribed the liability order holds no information about me whatsoever.
So this would mean the Council are illegally and unlawfully acting as a court or record, administering judical business and acting as justices of the peace in breach of the Local government act 1888 section 78
Dear Mr Phillips,
Thank you for your email.
Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 do not specify that the summons must have a court seal.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Dear FOI Freedom of Information Mailbox,
In Law EVERY Court Summons must carry a court seal.
If a Court summons doesn't carry a Court seal then it is a fake summons.
1. Please provide me with a copy of legislation that permits PCC to issue fake Court summonses.
2. Please provide me with a copy of legislation that permits PCC to commit Fraud.
Yours sincerely,
David Phillips
Thank you for your e-mail. If this is a valid request made under Freedom
of Information you can expect to receive a response within 20 working
days.
Preston City Council
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Preston City Council is a Living Wage Employer.
Personal information will be kept safe and secure and will only be kept
for as long as is necessary. Further information can be found in the
Privacy Notice on the Council’s website
https://www.preston.gov.uk/thecouncil/da....
This message and any file or link transmitted with it is confidential,
subject to copyright, and intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. It may contain privileged information.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure, distribution or publication is
prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the
sender by reply email and destroy and delete the message and all copies
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Dear Mr Phillips,
Thank you for your email.
As per our previous email, Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 do not specify that the summons must have a court seal.
If you are still unhappy with the information provided, please contact the Information Commissioner’s office (ICO). Please see the contact options for the ICO below.
https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/foi-...
Information Commissioner’s office
Wycliffe House
Water Lane
Wilmslow
Cheshire
SK9SAF
Alternatively, you can ring the office on 0303 123 113.
Kind regards,
Simon Ridgway
Information Governance Officer
Preston City Council
Andrew Panrucker left an annotation ()
So no court seal, it's not gone through the court then.
I done a FOI request to my council, who makes the liability order the council or the court. The Council said the court grant them leave to do all their own administration. This doesn't sound correct, as that would be in contravention of the Local Government Act 1888 section 78. The Council cannot act as a court of record, administer a oath or carry out judical business
Andrew Panrucker left an annotation ()
So their answer to everything is the Local Government Finance Act 1992
Where does it say in law the they can go against civil procedure rules, the Magistrates Court Act 1980 and Magistrates Court rules 1981.
Liability order hearing's are also held in bulk, so no individual consideration is given to each individual case before the summons is granted, another breach of rules.
The prescribed form for liability order's was withdrawn from law in England in October 2003 and hasn't been replaced since
David Phillips left an annotation ()
They're now loosing over 1 million pounds per year because when they send in the balifs to collect the alleged arrears people now know that they have no powers to force entry into someone's homes and simply send them on their way. Plus, they don't have a copy of the liability orders they're trying to enforce.....because they don't exist. The debts are then returned to the council and no further action is usually taken because the council know that they themselves are acting unlawfully. More and more people are awakening to the council tax scam and are refusing to pay.
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Andrew Panrucker left an annotation ()
Whow he's admitted they reserve court time. They produce their own summons and liability order's illegally acting as a court of record. Because the court will not have no record of the alleged liability order, they tell you to phone the council. Yet when you question anything they say, well we've always done it this way. Doesn't make it legal though does it.
Plus the prescribed form for the liability order was withdrawn from law in England in October 2003 and has not been replaced since.
Be interesting what you would get back if you done a data subject access request to the MOJ on all data held on you at the magistrates court