Legislation CHAPTERS?

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith made this Freedom of Information request to Ministry of Justice This request has been closed to new correspondence. Contact us if you think it should be reopened.

The request was successful.

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Ministry of Justice,

Please would you supply me with information regarding legislation, when it is referred to as "Chapter" and a number?

Examples:
Bail Act 1976 CHAPTER 63
Bankers’ Books Evidence Act 1879 CHAPTER 11
Criminal Justice Act 2003 CHAPTER 44

What are these Acts (and others) chapters of? Please supply me with information regarding the main document to which all these Acts are each a chapter.

If you do not hold this information, please inform me who does.

Thank you.

Yours faithfully,

Sarah

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Ministry of Justice,

Predictably, and as always with me, you are late on responding to a FOI request.

The contempt you demonstrate for the very 'law' you are paid to uphold is astounding!

Please respond to my request immediately.

Yours faithfully,

Sarah

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Ministry of Justice,

Still no reply?

Sarah

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Sarah,

Apologies for the delay responding to your original request in which you asked for the following information:

Please would you supply me with information regarding legislation,
when it is referred to as "Chapter" and a number?

Examples:
Bail Act 1976 CHAPTER 63
Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 CHAPTER 11
Criminal Justice Act 2003 CHAPTER 44

What are these Acts (and others) chapters of? Please supply me with
information regarding the main document to which all these Acts are
each a chapter.

If you do not hold this information, please inform me who does.

Please be aware that your question below does not fall under the Freedom of Information request.

You may be interested to know that the Freedom of Information Act (2000) gives individuals and organisations the right of access to all types of recorded information held, at the time the request is received, by public authorities such as the Ministry of Justice (MoJ). Section 84 of the Act states that in order for a request for information to be handled as a Freedom of Information (FOI) request, it must be for recorded information. For example, a Freedom of Information request would be for a copy of a policy, rather than an explanation as to why we have that policy in place.

On occasion, we receive requests for information that do not ask for a copy of recorded information, but ask more general questions about, for example, a policy, an opinion or a decision. In these instances, another business unit would handle the enquiry.

I have assessed your correspondence and since you are not asking for recorded information, I have passed on your request to our general queries team who will take your correspondence forward.

Best Wishes
Kate

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Ministry of Justice,

In the paragraph "What are these Acts (and others) chapters of? Please supply me with information regarding the main document to which all these Acts are each a chapter." ... I am clearly asking for recorded information. The main document IS 'recorded information', is it not?

Please do not add insult to injury (of ignoring me and showing contempt for the legal deadline of 20 days to respond) by not answering.

Forgive my original wording, but I am CLEARLY asking for RECORDED INFORMATION, and the pedantic attempt by the MoJ not to answer is predictable. As ever....

This is, and always was, a FOI request.

You are required to respond in full within 20 days of the ORIGINAL request. Please tell me which law allows you to NOT respond within the statutory limit, whenever it suits you?

Yours sincerely,

Sarah

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Dear Sarah,

Thank you for your email dated 6th September 2011, please see the attached letter in relation to your freedom of information request.

Regards
DACU

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit, @ MOJ

My original request was very clear and I quote it again here. Some of the Acs were:

Bail Act 1976 CHAPTER 63
Bankers’ Books Evidence Act 1879 CHAPTER 11
Criminal Justice Act 2003 CHAPTER 44

If it is too difficult to answer my original request, please simply provide me with the recorded information regarding the document to which the Acts above are 'chapters'.

Your apparent determination NOT to answer FOI requests is, frankly, wearing a little thin...

Yours sincerely,

Sarah

R Wright left an annotation ()

The Glossary on the www.legislation.gov.uk website maintained by the National Archives says that the "Chapter" number is just the sequential number of each Act. The definition says that:

"The sequential number of an Act (except an Act of the Scottish Parliament) is called a ‘Chapter number’. For example, the Police Reform Act 2002 is Chapter 30 in the year 2002. ‘Chapter’ is usually abbreviated:
Police Reform Act 2002 (c. 30)"

See: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/help#gloss...

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Dear Sarah Goldsmith,

Thank you for your email dated 21st September 2011, please see the attached letter in relation to your freedom of information request.

Regards
DACU

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

Further to your latest ridiculous reply which states: "I am currently unclear as to the exact scope of the information in which you are interested. In order to help ensure that I provide you with the right information, I would be grateful if you could clarify your request by providing some more information about what recorded information you are requesting, for example are you requesting copies of these chapters?"

The answer is 'no', I don't want copies of these chapters, I want RECORDED INFORMATION THAT TELLS ME WHAT THESE ACTS ARE CHAPTERS OF.

If you are STILL unable to comprehend this SIMPLE, CLEAR and PRECISE request, please contact me again as I may be able to find you a trained monkey who can help you understand plain English!

One more attempt NOT to answer and I shall refer the whole sorry matter to the Information Commissioner!

Your CONTEMPT OF THE LAW is astounding. As always....

MoJ, YOU ARE A DISGRACE!

Yours sincerely,

Sarah

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Sarah,

Please accept my apologies for the to-ing and fro-ing of correspondence in relation to your request.

It might be helpful if I explain that we are unable to process any such request unless we are clear exactly what information you are seeking.

As I understand, your request relates to the following identified legislation:

Bail Act 1976 CHAPTER 63
Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 CHAPTER 11
Criminal Justice Act 2003 CHAPTER 44

Below you are asking for any recorded information held by the department identifying "what these acts are chapters of".

Can you therefore clarify that you are seeking any appropriate legislation that these Acts are included in - as chapters. So for example - you mention that the Bail Act 1976 is chapter 63 - so would you like to know chapter 63 of what?

I have tried my very best to interpret your request and hopefully we will be able to resolve your query and take your request forward.

I apologise for any frustration this may have caused.

Best Wishes
Kate

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

Your reply asks "So for example - you mention that the Bail Act 1976 is chapter 63 - so would you like to know chapter 63 of what?"

YES, that is precisely what I have been asking for - right from the very beginning of this tedious and ridiculous correspondence.

My congratulations for finally finding someone at the MoJ who can understand simple, plain English!!!

Sarah

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Sarah,

Thank you for confirming the clarification of the information you are seeking.

However, this would be best dealt with by our general queries team who will take your correspondence forward with the appropriate area of the business who will advise what the referenced Acts are chapters of.

Best Wishes
Kate

Kate Balding|Business Coordinator

Data Access & Compliance Unit
Ministry of Justice|6th Floor|Post Point 6.23
102 Petty France|London|SW1H 9AJ

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

I am now filing a COMPLAINT with the information commissioner regarding this nonsense.

Yours sincerely,
Sarah

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

Helloooooo....... I'm STILL waiting..........

Yours sincerely,

Sarah Goldsmith

L : Turnbull left an annotation ()

All rooting for you at the manor, Lioness.
Go get 'em girl.
Lance

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear Ministry of Justice,

The Information Commissioner has written to you reminding you of your responsibilities and asking you to respond to me within 10 working days of receiving its letter.

Please respond to this FOI request. You are a disgrace!

Yours faithfully,

Sarah Goldsmith

Becky Bbear left an annotation ()

Sarah - The word 'Chapter' as used when referring to individual Acts does not mean a chapter of another document, it identifies the number of an individual Act among all Acts that were made in that year.

For example - The Bail Act 1976 was the 63rd Act made in 1976 (Chapter 63 of the year 1976).

I think the historical origin for this use of the term was the 'Court Rolls' - large rolls of paper/parchment containing (in order) all laws enacted (signed) by the monarch in a particular year. Each enactment (Act) was listed in order and formed a 'chapter' in the relevant Roll. In context, 'Court' means the Royal Court - as in St James Palace 'The Court of St James', not Court(s) of Justice in the modern sense.

Court meaning literally the place where the King/Queen was officially 'in residence' and ambassadors received/state business conducted.

Becky

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith left an annotation ()

Thank you Becky.

My concern is, if the answer is that simple, why are the MoJ deliberately NOT answering my FOI request....???

Becky Bbear left an annotation ()

Sarah - not so sure the authority are deliberately 'not answering', seems more like they are:

(i) Not treating this as an FOIA request, just a general question.

(ii) Not aware of the historical origin of the term. If the person(s) responding doesn't know (or know who else to ask/where to look) then they can't answer.

If you really want MoJ to confirm the explanations R Wright and I have given, try copying our answers to them and asking if they are correct.

FOIA can't help with general knowledge questions, or ignorance.

Becky

I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith left an annotation ()

Becky, You seem to spend a good deal of your time responding to my FOI requests.

Whilst I appreciate your time, I see you are also 'helping' many other people with 'information' as well.

Do you work for a government agency perhaps? Should we send our FOI requests directly to you?

Please do not comment on my posts: when the question is put to a specific agency it is for THEM to respond. And them only.

Thank you

Becky Bbear left an annotation ()

Sarah - In a way I guess I am a government employee, just not a UK one. If your interested, I'm with the Portland Police Bureau in the US.

Guess I do spend a fair amount of time helping out on the whatdotheyknow site voluntarily, helping users with clarifications/information through the annotation facility included for that specific purpose by the site administrators.

Along with the volunteer administrators I also help clear up those requsts which have been wrongly marked or 'abandoned' by the original requester. Helps ensure the information posted is kept up to date and accurate - in accordance with site policy.

I find it interesting (and sometimes amusing) how the site is used and just try to provide additional information for those making some requests (ones where I happen to know a little about the subject - or where else to look to find that information).

The US has similar FOI laws - and sites similar to WDTK, where users can freely exchange or provide information/comments/suggestions.

I also make occasional requests for friends in the UK, guess in that sense I'm sort of a 'strawman' too - just never thought of it that way.

Anyway, the whole point of having the annotation facility is for users to be able to support each other and provide each other with relevant information, that may not be available directly through FOIA because its not information the authorities themselves would necessarily know or hold (at least not their average employee anyway - some of it is pretty obscure).

I also like to help new users of the site understand how FOI works - and how to make best/serious use of it.

I like to think that in some cases I can give users the information they want quicker than the authorities, because I have more free time and get to pick and choose what to snswer/comment on.

If you really want to ask me for advice/information direct - feel free. I'll do the best I can to help out where I can.

You (or anyone else) can email me direct via Sscarebbear@aol.com - I'll always respond and always advise to double check the information I provide with other sources.

Clear enough?

Becky

Joy left an annotation ()

@Sarah:
Becky is trying to help you, and I would like to add that by your telling the MoJ that they are a disgrace, constitutes vexatious behavior which means they can ignore you for ever more if they choose, and can justify their reason for doing so.
From my pov as an independent rational unbiased truthsayer, she's doing ok and you are being impatient and aggressive.
Im not attacking you, Im helping you. Chill out!

Joy left an annotation ()

the MoJ response however was obstinate, bloody-minded and stubborn as possible. What people have to be aware of is the office bureaucrats are a combination of very intelligent people who play games to entertain themselves in a boring job, perhaps their only outlet for amusement in the workplace, and they generally get away with it because of 'would rather clarify a confusing question to death than give out wrong information' and also, basically stupid people who don't know the answers but must research them, and cannot research them if they are too dumb to understand the question. I have found that in both cases, expressing the question like a robot speaking to a machine is the most effective method of getting through to them. Thats why I am grateful of more humane and normal friendly people who offer the same answers on forums that the MoJ would take months to come up with.

M Bimmler left an annotation ()

Two points:
1) Agree about Becky being helpful here, and precisely for these kinds of questions, you will get much quicker responses from volunteers than from govt departments. Also, remember that the FOIA only applies to *recorded* information. So, unless the MoJ somewhere holds a document which says "Oh, by the way, the term 'chapter' actually means this and this in the context of statutes", they are not required to release any information.

2) This leads me to my 2nd point: Of course, even if they don't have recorded information on it, it is amazingly stupid that they don't just respond to your question in a plain way. Either they're really playing a little game here, or the people in the Data Access & Compliance Unit really don't know the answer either - which is possible, because they're probably not lawyers or legal historians - and didn't have a clue whom to ask. The latter, though, would be just a little bit sad, really...

CLPU, Correspondence, Ministry of Justice

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CLPU, Correspondence, Ministry of Justice

Criminal Law and Legal Policy Unit
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

T:020 3334 3555
F: 020 3334 4455
E: [email address]

www.justice.gov.uk



Sarah Goldsmith

[FOI #81670 email]


Our ref: TO11/5391
3 January 2012

Dear Ms Goldsmith

Thank you for your email of 19 October addressed to the Data Access and Compliance Unit about legislation chapters. It has been passed to me for reply. I apologise for the delay in my doing so.
You wish to know why Acts of Parliament have a short title and a chapter number. You mention Bail Act 1976 CHAPTER 63; Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 CHAPTER 11 and Criminal Justice Act 2003 CHAPTER 44. I am not clear why you want this information but each Act of the United Kingdom Parliament is given a chapter number. The first Act to achieve Royal Assent in a session of Parliament is chapter 1, the second chapter 2 and so on. The order of the chapter numbers therefore indicates the order in which Acts received Royal Assent. A session of Parliament runs from the relevant opening of Parliament to the next prorogation. We are currently in the first session of the Parliament summoned in 2010.

I hope you find this helpful.

Yours sincerely

NEIL UNDERWOOD

This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the attention of
the addressee(s). Its unauthorised use, disclosure, storage or copying
is not permitted. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all
copies and inform the sender by return e-mail.

Internet e-mail is not a secure medium. Any reply to this message
could be intercepted and read by someone else. Please bear that in
mind when deciding whether to send material in response to this message
by e-mail.

This e-mail (whether you are the sender or the recipient) may be
monitored, recorded and retained by the Ministry of Justice. E-mail
monitoring / blocking software may be used, and e-mail content may be
read at any time. You have a responsibility to ensure laws are not
broken when composing or forwarding e-mails and their contents.

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I am the agent for the fictional strawman that was created with the name Sarah Goldsmith

Dear CLPU, Correspondence,

Thank you Neil.

A simple and clear answer to a simple and clear question, that only took 6 months to answer...

Yours sincerely,

Sarah Goldsmith

John Paffvett left an annotation ()

I think this site is informative and monitors its self appropriatly. Ms Goldsmith has a right to such information, it is my firm belief that dark forces are at work at the expense of us all to suggest otherwise is pure folly. I have a contract for my district Council to collect all household waste period. The local council brought in recycling, good! I even bought 2 green bins, now they want more money. Sorry contract is a contract is a contract. they cannot dictate. Another, school fees, none because of the banks, need I say anymore. What about the green bin bag scandle, I paid extra for bags, they dumped them at the local dumping ground with all other rubbish, not recycled. Finally, MP's Expenses Scandle.