Information about the new "Visitor Pass" tickets that you are selling.

The request was successful.

Charles Atkinson

Dear Transport for London,

Hello all.

I see that recently you introduced a new "Visitor Pass" ticket which gives travel within the Z1-Z6 area. It comes in both a £25.40 version for two days and a £38.10 version for 3 days.

Here is the link to the ticket that i am referring to: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/vi...

And there is also information on this link here: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/vi...

It is the same exact price as 2x Ordinary Z1-Z6 Day Travelcards (£12.70+£12.70=£25.40) or as 3x Ordinary Z1-Z6 Day Travelcards (£12.70+£12.70+£12.70=£38.10).

However the "Visitor Pass" is not valid on National Rail services (other than London Overground and TFL Rail) but the Ordinary Z1-Z6 Day Travelcard tickets are valid on all National Rail services. Therefore whilst the "Visitor Pass is the same price as buying an Ordinary Z1-Z6 Day Travelcard every day it gives much less validity as you can not use National Rail. This is a huge reduction in validity as National Rail services make up the majority of the public transport in London (the NR network within Z1-Z6 being much larger than the LU network). Also it does not give discounted fares on Cable Cars or Ferries unlike Travelcards which do.

It is therefore clear that the aim appears to be to rip off and scam unaware tourists who do not realise that they can just buy Travelcards for the same exact price but get much more validity as they also include National Rail services. Anyone who is aware would simply purchase Travelcards for the same exact price to get better value. This seems very dodgy and dishonest of you to do.

So i would like to ask a few questions under the FOI Act:

1. What is the point of this ticket and why was it introduced?

2. How many have so far been sold since its introduction (please break it down in to "2 Day Adult" / "3 Day Adult" / "2 Day Child" / "3 Day Child" versions).

3. Why is it not valid on National Rail services (other than London Overground and TFL Rail)?

4. Why does it not give discounted fares on Cable Cars and Ferries?

5. When your staff sell these tickets or advise passengers about these tickets are they trained to warn them that it is not valid on all National Rail services and that it does not give discounts on the Cable Cars and Ferries?

6. When your staff sell these tickets or advise passengers about these tickets are they trained to tell them that they can get a better validity ticket that is also valid on all National Rail services and gives discounts on Cable Cars and Ferries by purchasing Travelcards each day for the same exact price?

7. When you created and planned this ticket were you aware that it was the same price as buying a Travelcard each day but had less validity (as it is not valid on National Rail nor does it give discounts on Cable Cars and Ferries) and if so why did you still go ahead with creating it?

8. How many complaints have you received about this ticket and please provide details of each and every complaint?

Finally right here you are hugely misleading passengers in regards to validity on National Rail services:

Firstly here you say this: "Your Visitor Pass isn't valid for travel, or to buy discounted fares on National Rail, Emirates Air Line or River Bus services."

Secondly then you say this: "Our new 2 Day or 3 Day Visitor Pass gives you the freedom to travel off-peak as much as you want on bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and TfL Rail. You don't need to pre-order or top up and the pass is available for adults and children."

London Overground and TFL Rail are both National Rail services. I know you don't like admitting it and are trying to make them in to LU style services but it is well known that the fact is London Overground and TFL Rail are still National Rail services. So what you really meant to say is that the Visitor Pass is not valid on National Rail services except London Overground and TFL Rail services.

So please also let me know the following under the FOI Act:

9. Was this simply an error or are you trying to make passengers think that London Overground and TFL Rail are not National Rail services?

10. Will you edit your website (both of the two links above) and publicity to clarify that it is valid on some National Rail services (London Overground and TFL Rail) but not on other National Rail services?

Also i recommend that you immediately start accepting these on all National Rail services within Z1-Z6 (just like Travelcards) and start giving discounts on Cable Cars and Ferries or if you are not willing to do this then you withdraw these tickets immediately. Perhaps you should just create two day and three day versions of your Travelcards instead. I have reported this to both Advertising Standards and to Trading Standards as it is clearly a rip off and a scam to trick tourists in to buying something that has less validity than another product that costs the same price. And that's before i mention the misleading publicity on your website where you don't include London Overground and TFL Rail as National Rail services. This whole ticket is a joke and simply a tourist trap.

Thank you for reading this and i look forward to your response soon.

Yours faithfully,

Charles Atkinson

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Atkinson

TfL Ref: 0866-1819

Thank you for your email received by us on 28 June 2018.

Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act and our information access policy.

Unfortunately, from the description provided, we are unable to identify the following information you require:

8. How many complaints have you received about this ticket and please provide details of each and every complaint?

To enable us to assist with your request, please state the period of time that you would like the above question to cover.

The Freedom of Information Act allows you to request recorded information held by Transport for London. There are limits on the time that we are required to spend determining whether we hold the information you are requesting and the time spent locating, retrieving and extracting it. Therefore you should identify the information that you want as clearly and concisely as you can, specifying the types of document that you are looking for. You might also consider limiting your request to a particular period of time, geographical area or specific departments of the organisation.

Although your request can take the form of a question, rather than a request for specific documents, we do not have to answer your question if it would require the creation of new information or the provision of a judgement, explanation, advice or opinion that was not already recorded at the time of your request.

Please note that the 20 working day deadline for responding to your request will depend on when we receive satisfactory additional information to help clarify your request.

If we hear nothing further from you by 25 July 2018 your response will be treated as a new request.

In the meantime, if you have any queries or would like to discuss your request, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Jasmine Howard
FOI Case Officer
Information Governance
Transport For London

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Charles Atkinson

Dear FOI,

Hello.

Sorry i wasn't clear. In order to clarify:

I would like details going back to the day that this ticket was introduced. I do not know the exact date it was introduced but i know it was very recent (if you could let me know the exact date it was introduced that would be helpful). Please let me how many complaints you have received between the day the ticket was introduced and now. And please provide details of each and every complaint.

Hope this helps. Thank you.

Yours sincerely,

Charles Atkinson

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Atkinson

TfL Ref: 0866-1819

Thank you for your further email received by us on 3 July 2018 in relation to your Freedom of Information request.

Your clarification has been noted and I would like to advise that your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy.

Your request will be processed by TfL, the Greater London Authority and its subsidiaries to provide you with a response in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy.

A response will be sent to you by 1 August 2018. We publish a substantial range of information on our website on subjects including operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar... to see if this helps you.

We will publish anonymised versions of requests and responses on the www.tfl.gov.uk website. We will not publish your name and we will send a copy of the response to you before it is published on our website.

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Jasmine Howard
FOI Case Officer
Information Governance
Transport For London

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FOI, Transport for London

1 Attachment

Dear Mr Atkinson

 

TfL Ref: 0866-1819

 

Thank you for your emails received by us on 28 June and 3 July 2018 asking
for information about the Visitor Pass.

 

Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of
the Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy. I can
confirm that we hold some of the information you require. You asked:

 

 1. What is the point of this ticket and why was it introduced?

 

The Visitor Pass is available in two or three day variants, which widens
the choice available for those who wish to use a printed ticket, rather
than an Oyster or contactless card on Transport for London (TfL) services
for a short period of time, such as during a weekend break for example.

 

As our website states:’ You don't need to pre-order, you can buy your
Visitor Pass at a number of Tube stations and Visitor Centres across
London, or you can buy it one week in advance from Visitor Centres’ :
[1]https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/vi...

 

Research also shows that visitors choose convenience over price. Only five
per cent of visitors pre-plan and buy their tickets in advance. We are
piloting the Visitor Pass multiple days ticket to test the market and see
whether these will be popular with tourists.

 

 2. How many have so far been sold since its introduction (please break it
down in to "2 Day Adult" / "3 Day Adult" / "2 Day Child" / "3 Day
Child" versions).

 

As the Visitor Pass was recently launched on 24 June 2018, analytics for
the Visitor Pass are not currently available since decisions on when and
how to report upon the sales of the Pass and measuring whether the trial
has been successful have yet to be concluded.

 

 3. Why is it not valid on National Rail services (other than London
Overground and TFL Rail)?

 

 4. Why does it not give discounted fares on Cable Cars and Ferries?

 

The Visitor Pass is a TfL product. Whilst London Overground and TfL Rail
are TfL services, National Rail services are not managed by us. As
mentioned previously, the Visitor Pass was launched on 24 June 2018 and is
valid solely on all TfL services. It is only available for purchase during
the trial period of six months. If the trial is successful, negotiations
with other services will be made in regards to validity or discounts.

 

 5. When your staff sell these tickets or advise passengers about these
tickets are they trained to warn them that it is not valid on all
National Rail services and that it does not give discounts on the
Cable Cars and Ferries?

 

 6. When your staff sell these tickets or advise passengers about these
tickets are they trained to tell them that they can get a better
validity ticket that is also valid on all National Rail services and
gives discounts on Cable Cars and Ferries by purchasing Travelcards
each day for the same exact price?

 

Whilst Visitor Passes are not Travelcards, our staff are trained to tell
customers what is best option for them. Many customers want the
convenience of buying a ticket valid for their stay of two or three days
in one transaction, without having to top up or use a contactless card for
instance.

 

7. When you created and planned this ticket were you aware that it was the
same price as buying a Travelcard each day but had less validity (as it is
not valid on National Rail nor does it give discounts on Cable Cars and
Ferries) and if so why did you still go ahead with creating it?

 

We were aware, which is why we are only trialling this ticket that is only
available from selected London Underground stations in central London, as
well as our Visitor Centres. They are also available at Heathrow Terminals
2, 3 and 4, whereby Visitor Pass holders can travel from the airport via
the tube or by using TfL Rail to Paddington Station.

 

8. How many complaints have you received about this ticket and please
provide details of each and every complaint? I would like details going
back to the day that this ticket was introduced. I do not know the exact
date it was introduced but i know it was very recent (if you could let me
know the exact date it was introduced that would be helpful). Please let
me how many complaints you have received between the day the ticket was
introduced and now. And please provide details of each and every
complaint.

 

The ‘Visitor Pass’ was launched on 24 June 2018. We have no record of any
complaints received from its launch date to the time of your request.

 

Finally right here you are hugely misleading passengers in regards to
validity on National Rail services:

 

Firstly here you say this: "Your Visitor Pass isn't valid for travel, or
to buy discounted fares on National Rail, Emirates Air Line or River Bus
services."

 

Secondly then you say this: "Our new 2 Day or 3 Day Visitor Pass gives you
the freedom to travel off-peak as much as you want on bus, Tube, tram,
DLR, London Overground and TfL Rail. You don't need to pre-order or top up
and the pass is available for adults and children."

 

London Overground and TFL Rail are both National Rail services. I know you
don't like admitting it and are trying to make them in to LU style
services but it is well known that the fact is London Overground and TFL
Rail are still National Rail services. So what you really meant to say is
that the Visitor Pass is not valid on National Rail services except London
Overground and TFL Rail services.

 

So please also let me know the following under the FOI Act:

 

9. Was this simply an error or are you trying to make passengers think
that London Overground and TFL Rail are not National Rail services?

 

10. Will you edit your website (both of the two links above) and publicity
to clarify that it is valid on some National Rail services (London
Overground and TFL Rail) but not on other National Rail services?

 

Neither. As mentioned previously, London Overground and TfL Rail are TfL
services. The remainder of mainline services are managed, owned and
operated by a variety of other train operating companies, which do not
come under TfL’s remit; TfL does not set nor has any power over fares for
these rail services.

 

We will not be editing our website since it clearly explains the Visitor
Pass’ validity.

 

Also i recommend that you immediately start accepting these on all
National Rail services within Z1-Z6 (just like Travelcards) and start
giving discounts on Cable Cars and Ferries or if you are not willing to do
this then you withdraw these tickets immediately. Perhaps you should just
create two day and three day versions of your Travelcards instead. I have
reported this to both Advertising Standards and to Trading Standards as it
is clearly a rip off and a scam to trick tourists in to buying something
that has less validity than another product that costs the same price. And
that's before i mention the misleading publicity on your website where you
don't include London Overground and TFL Rail as National Rail services.
This whole ticket is a joke and simply a tourist trap.

 

The Visitor Pass has been introduced under a six month trial. Our staff
are aware the ticket is not valid on National Rail and will advise
customers accordingly. If tickets are purchased in error, refunds will be
given.

 

If this is not the information you are looking for, or if you are unable
to access it for any reason, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to
appeal as well as information on copyright and what to do if you would
like to re-use any of the information we have disclosed.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Jasmine Howard

FOI Case Officer

Information Governance

Transport For London

 

 

 

 

 

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Charles Atkinson

Dear FOI,

Many thanks for your response. Can you please provide any documents that state that London Overground and TFL Rail are not National Rail services. I know that they are TFL services but i believe that they are National Rail services as well.

For example look at these links which list London Overground and TFL Rail as National Rail TOCs:

National Rail Conditions Of Travel (2018 edition) - page 30 - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%2...

National Rail Conditions Of Travel (2016 edition) - page 31 - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions...

National Rail Website - list of train operating companies - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/...

And then most importantly look at this link which pretty much confirms that what you told me is untrue:

Ticketing & Travel Guide - London Overground & TFL Rail - page 2 - http://content.tfl.gov.uk/rail-for-londo...

Here is the quote from page 2 as follows:

"London Overground and TfL Rail are part of the National Rail network and the National Rail
Conditions of Travel apply for journeys made on them unless we say otherwise in this Guide."

And then on page 20 it says this:

"In addition to any special conditions mentioned, all tickets issued for travel on London Overground and TfL Rail are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel."

And then on page 25 you have clearly listed London Overground and TFL Rail services as National Rail on this information:

"Freedom Passes, 60+ London Oyster photocards and Veterans Oyster photocards can also be used between 0430 and 0930 on the following National Rail services:
• Amersham to Marylebone
• Finsbury Park to King’s Cross/Moorgate
• Harrow & Wealdstone to Clapham Junction via Kensington (Olympia)*
• Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston
• New Cross Gate to West Croydon / Crystal Palace / Clapham Junction (London Overground
service only)
• Stratford to Liverpool Street
• Upminster to Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street (not via Romford)
• Watford Junction to Harrow & Wealdstone (London Overground service only)
• West Hampstead Thameslink to Elephant & Castle/London Bridge
• West Ruislip to South Ruislip.
* On Southern services between Clapham Junction and Harrow & Wealdstone, holders of
Veterans Oyster photocards or Disabled Person Freedom Passes can travel free at any time;
holders of Older Persons Freedom Passes and 60+ London Oyster photocards can travel
free from 0900 on Mondays to Fridays (excluding public holidays) and at all times on
Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays."

But i think the most important part is definitely the part on page 2 (which i also mentioned above):

"London Overground and TfL Rail are part of the National Rail network and the National Rail
Conditions of Travel apply for journeys made on them unless we say otherwise in this Guide."

This is your very own document produced by yourself (TFL) rather than by National Rail so you can't really argue with your own publicity.

These links contradict your claim. So it would be great if you could provide any documentation that shows that London Overground and TFL Rail are not National Rail services as you claim.

I also don't believe this is true - "We will not be editing our website since it clearly explains the Visitor Pass validity." - it does not clearly state the validity because one paragraph on your website says it is not valid on National Rail services ( https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/vi... ) while another paragraph of your website says it is valid on London Overground and TFL Rail ( https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/vi... ) services (which is correct) however TFL Rail and London Overground are both National Rail services as can be seen from the evidence i provided above which is why it should say it is valid on some but not all National Rail services.

So all i ask for in this request is firstly please provide documents that prove that London Overground and TFL Rail are not National Rail services.

And secondly if you provide these documents then does that mean that this paragraph - "London Overground and TfL Rail are part of the National Rail network and the National Rail
Conditions of Travel apply for journeys made on them unless we say otherwise in this Guide." - on page 2 of - http://content.tfl.gov.uk/rail-for-londo... - is incorrect (as well as the other links and information i attached).

Many thanks and i look forward to your further response.

Yours sincerely,

Charles Atkinson

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Atkinson

TfL Ref: 1257-1819

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 2 August 2018. Please accept my apologies for the delay in acknowledging your correspondence.

Your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy.

Your request will be processed by TfL, the Greater London Authority and its subsidiaries to provide you with a response in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy.

A response will be sent to you by 3 September 2018. We publish a substantial range of information on our website on subjects including operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar... to see if this helps you.

We will publish anonymised versions of requests and responses on the www.tfl.gov.uk website. We will not publish your name and we will send a copy of the response to you before it is published on our website.

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Jasmine Howard
FOI Case Officer
Information Governance
Transport For London

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FOI, Transport for London

1 Attachment

Dear Mr Atkinson

 

TfL Ref: 1257-1819

 

Thank you for your email received by us on 2 August 2018 asking for
information about London Overground and TfL Rail in relation to your
previous request (reference: 0866-1819).

 

Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of
the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act and our information access policy.
You asked for:

 

any documents that state that London Overground and TFL Rail are not
National Rail services

 

We do not hold the information you have requested. Your feedback on the
Visitor Pass and the information on our website has been passed to the
relevant department for their consideration.

 

Please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to
appeal.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Jasmine Howard

FOI Case Officer

Information Governance

Transport For London

 

 

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