Ideal isar boilers

D. Speers made this Freedom of Information request to Department of Energy and Climate Change

This request has been closed to new correspondence from the public body. Contact us if you think it ought be re-opened.

The request was partially successful.

Dear Department of Energy and Climate Change,

Some relevant data has been brought to my attention re the efficiency of the boilers used by Warmfront installers:
I've also discovered that the so called not so ideal 'Ideal Isar'has only scored 85% on a boiler efficiency test by a Which? Review giving it a B rating at best.

Please advise: If this is the case why are these boilers still being fitted by Warm Front etc. I thought the
Government Central Heating and Boiler Scrappage Scheme Grants stipulated the use of A rated boilers only. Is this right ?

As for GAIN (Grant Aided Installation Network) they do not test,recommend or conclude which type of boiler are the most reliable or efficient as the DECC regularly refer to. They only collate any information centrally as a reference point from data sent in from boiler manufactures.
It appears DECC claim the 'recommendations' from GAIN are the reason they use the Ideal Isar. I've spoken to GAIN directly, they say they've no idea why the DECC keep claiming GAIN advocate the Ideal Isar.

1)Is the Ideal Isar rated A or B?
2)What evidence can DECC offer to support their claims re GAIN?
3) How does DECC ensure Eaga is fully compliant with customer service and complaints policy?

Yours faithfully,

D. Speers

D. Speers left an annotation ()

I have a letter from Eaga customer service, and it fails to follow up any of the promises made in the letter. The cover letter to MP states "Please find attached a letter dated 13th January from Warmfront assuring me of their attention, allotting me a 'case worker' and telling me that all should be put right within 28 days".
It is now the 22nd Feb and after me making several attempts to communicate with them to no avail, the time has now passed. I have never heard from the 'case worker' and I would appreciate your further intervention or advise me as to my next course of action."

Nothing done re:
Response Time
Contact from case worker
Keep MP (stakeholder) informed.
Customer has contact with an independent heating contractor but has been advised by Warmfront, unregistered installers cannot be used.

If you have a Warmfront story then send it to the DECC Select Committee in Parliament for their oral evidence session on Fuel Poverty on 3rd March.
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_c...

FOI Requests,

BIS ref: 10/0386

Dear D Speers,

Thank you for your request for information which was received on 25
February. Your request has been passed on to the appropriate official at
the Department of Energy and Climate Change to deal with.

Best wishes,

Kay

Kay Wilson | Freedom of Information Advisor | Information Rights Unit |
Department for Business, Innovation & Skills | Bay 351, 66-74 Victoria
Street, London, SW1E 6SW | [1]www.bis.gov.uk

The Department for Business, Innovation & Skills (BIS) is building a
dynamic and competitive UK economy by creating the conditions for business
success; promoting innovation, enterprise and science; and giving everyone
the skills and opportunities to succeed. To achieve this we will foster
world-class universities and promote an open global economy. BIS -
Investing in our future

show quoted sections

Dear FOI Requests,

Many thanks for your prompt acknowledgment. I appreciate your time.

Yours sincerely,

D. Speers

Oliver Alison \(Misc\), Department of Energy and Climate Change

1 Attachment

Our Ref: 10/0386

Dear D Speers

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request dated 25^th February
2010, asking the following:

1. Does the Government Central Heating and Boiler Scrappage Grant
stipulate the use of A rated boilers only?
2. Is the Ideal Isar boiler rated A or B?
3. As stated in a Which? Review on boiler efficiencies, if the Ideal Isar
does not meet the criteria for it to be an A rated boiler why are
these boilers being fitted by Warm Front?
4. What evidence can DECC offer to support their claims re GAIN?
5. How does DECC ensure Eaga is fully compliant with customer service and
complaints policy?

The Boiler Scrappage Scheme stipulates that if the replacement boiler is
gas or oil, it must be an A rated boiler. The scheme rules are published
at:

[1]http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home...

This is different to the Warm Front Scheme. The Warm Front Scheme
stipulates that where gas, oil or LPG fired boilers are installed in
existing dwellings by Warm Front installers, boilers with a SEDBUK
efficiency equal to or in excess of 86% (i.e. Band A or B) must be used
unless there are exceptional circumstances that makes this impractical or
too costly.

The Ideal Isar boiler is used by Warm Front installers at present and is
rated in Band A under the DEFRA/SEDBUK Scheme, as shown on the following
link:

[2]http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.c...

The SEDBUK grading is calculated using specified equations from results
obtained from extensive testing carried out by a Notified Body in response
to a request by the manufacturer, in this case Ideal, for certificated
approval to the Boiler Efficiency Directive (BED). The Notified Body is
appointed by the Government to certify products and production methods
which conform to the European Gas Appliance and Boiler Efficiency
Directives. Such certification is a legal requirement prior to the supply
of most gas products within the EU.

The Which? report on boilers (01 November 2007) refutes the figures from
the Notified Body and claims a much lower SEDBUK figure for the Ideal
Isar.

According to Ideal, the report does not make clear what efficiency figure
has been used in the measurements or how it was measured, although the
report infers that the figure is a calculated SEDBUK figure. Ideal state
that the figure quoted by Which? for the Isar boiler is too low to be
within the boundaries of experimental error and may be explained by a
difference in the method used to test the boilers and calculate the
efficiency rating.

The boilers used under the Warm Front Scheme were selected in 2005 based
on recommendations from Eaga, the Warm Front Scheme manager, to DEFRA, the
Government Department with responsibility for Warm Front prior to the
creation of Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) in 2008,
supported by GAIN.

Under the Warm Front Scheme, there is a process in place to handle
Customer complaints. Part of the complaint handling process includes
monthly meetings between DECC and Eaga to review the complaints received
and information collected, discussing specific cases and reviewing Key
Performance Indicators (KPI's) relating to Upheld complaints. If Eaga
fail to meet the target KPI in terms of customer complaints upheld they
are liable to pay the department for their failure.

Over the past two years there has not been a failure by Eaga to meet the
KPI of no more than 0.6% of upheld complaints in any given month. For
further assurance DECC engage White Young Green (WYG) as Independent
Quality Assessors to audit Eaga's processes, make calls to customers and
send letters to enquire on the level of customer service received. It is
DECCs view, based on the reports and feedback from WYG that Eaga have been
meeting the required minimum standards and KPIs. In their October 2009
report WYG reported that the level of customer satisfaction has continued
to be maintained, with 90% of customer feedback confirming satisfaction
with the Scheme.

Appeal Procedure

If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the
right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be
submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your
original letter and should be addressed to the Department.

Please remember to quote the reference number above in any future
communications.

If you are not content with the outcome of the internal review, you have
the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a
decision. The Information Commissioner can be contacted at: Information
Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9
5AF

Kind Regards

Alison

Alison Oliver

Warm Front Policy

Household Energy Efficiency and Fuel Poverty Division

Department of Energy and Climate Change
Zone 1d, 3 Whitehall Place, London, SW1A 2AW

Email: [3][email address]

[4]Picture (Device Independent Bitmap)

References

Visible links
1. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home...
2. http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.c...
3. mailto:[email address]

B. Stanton left an annotation ()

I utterly refute the figure that Eaga/Warmfront satisfy 90% of customer complaints.

I have been complaining about the way I have been treated when they badly fitted a boiler for my disabled daughter last November and after many, many phone calls and letters of complaint etc it is nearly April and the matter has still not been rectified.

I will be contacting White, Green, Young to see what they can do for me.
Barbara

amar left an annotation ()

Dear All,
This is a Warning.
The Ideal range of boilers are a poor make compared to other makes The ideals having no relibality at all.
The Isar is a complete and utter failure.
No engineer would reccomend an ideal boiler especially an Isar.
It seems quite clear that the scheme has been set up to promote this poor make and it is being provided to those in society who have no voice. This group of people being poor, elderly and disabled will not know any difference.
No one seems to want to clarify the facts regards the situation.
We need to set up an inquiry to look into why these boilers are being provided which are on the whole unreliable and constantly breakdown.
Alternatively the government should provide a 5-7 year guarantee for all customers so as to ensure that customers don't have to pay out considerable amounts in call outs and /or replacement of the boiler.

The Ideal boilers will obviously be very problematic for any customer and will have to be replaced fairy soon in its life...

Is this what we want for Warm Front customers..??

Paul of the Woods Family left an annotation ()

Our Ideal boiler was fitted in Feb 2008, developed a leak the next day, engineer fixed it.

Jan 2010, engineer came out to "service" the boiler, it didnt work from then on, water was luke warm then cold.

Same engineer came out said there was nothing wrong and it was a "water pressure" problem. But it still didnt give us hot water.

Another engineer came out and fitted a new part, worked ok for a few weeks, then same thing happened,no hot water.

On phoning warmfront, was told the 2 year guarantee was up and we would have to pay £240 for an engineer to fix it.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sorry to hear about your situation Paul......you will have to contact MP in new Parliament. Dept of Energy and Climate Change is the Government Dept and there is a Select Committee: http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_c...

Always keep a list of all names, dates, times and conversations.....then get your MP to chase things on your behalf!
The contact info I have is:'Lisa Hodges (Customer Management)Lisa.Hodges@eaga.com
Presumably all Eaga workers will have a similar email layout!
Good luck
Dee

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Michael K. Davies left an annotation ()

Following you will find just some of our many email communications regarding an Ideal isar central heating boiler system. It does not reflect the hours of time we have spent on the telephone getting nowhere.

Tuesday, 21 December, 2010 11:11:45RE: Broken down Central Heating System
From: Customer Management <customer.management@eaga.com>View
To: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your email.

We will endeavour to respond to your email within two working days.
However, if your enquiry is urgent, please contact our Customer Service
Centre on 0800 316 6011.

With best regards

Tuesday, 21 December, 2010 11:11:43Broken down Central Heating System
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: customer.management@eaga.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs,

Yesterday I had cause to send emailed letters of complaint to my local Tamworth MP, Mr Christopher Pincher, and BBC Watchdog concerning the failures of a central heating system installed under the Warmfront scheme in March of this year.

The last engineer who visited our home, Monday 13th December, said that a part was faulty and that a replacement part had to be ordered but would take 5 days to obtain. It is now 21st December and no communication has been received from the installers to inform us when this part will be obtained and installed in our heating system.

Why are parts not readily available and kept in stock for a modern, supposedly efficient, newly installed central heating system?

I suspect that the equipment is an obsolete out of date ineffecient system that has been superseeded and we have had this obsolete system installed in order to clear old stock. Someone is being well paid to pass this ineficiency on to the unsuspecting public.

It is my intention now to pass our story on to all the National Daily Newspapers at 12 Noon today.

The reasons I now send this email is that either: 1. We cannot make contact with who we need to by phone because no one answers, or 2. When we finally get someone on the phone, they cannot give answers and only say it is not their responsibility and swiftly suggest we phone soneone else.

Our postcode is B77 5NT
Our name is Davies

If at all you are interested.

Michael K. Davies

Monday, 20 December, 2010 11:53:21Freezing in our home this winter
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr Pincher,

In 2009 I became redundant and at the age then of 63. I then could not get find an opportunity to get myself back into work.

The Tamworth Job centre advised me to apply for pension credit. This I did with success.

Because our then central heating boiler had been condemed and shut down by British Gas, we were informed that, as part of being on pension credit, we could apply for a Government backed scheme that funding would be found for a new central heating system through Warmfront.

In March of this year our funded central heating system was installed. Coming as it did at the start of the warmer Spring and Summer months, we had no cause to use the heating system.

At the start of the present cold spell, perhaps some two months ago, we felt the need to utilise our new system to warm our house and provide hot water. Almost immediately our problems stated.

In the past 8 weeks we have had four engineers call to fix problems with the system. The last engineer found that a valve/switch was faulty and that a new one would have to be ordered in, a process taking 5 days. We have now been without heating for 10 days during this period.

On a previous engineers visit, he informed us that the boiler would not fire because it was FROZEN !!!!!

Over the past few days we have found out that even British Gas will not touch the make of boiler that we have installed.

The last engineer who called, to look at our heating problem, told us that his Comany (a contracter to Warmsure) had stopped using this same make of boiler on their own non-contracted work.

We have found other householders now who have also had similar problems as ourselves with this same make of boiler .

What use is a central heating system that does not work when the winter weather is so cold?

Why are parts not readily available for central heating system during the winter?

Why are these installation organisations being allowed to fit what we now consider to be obsolete boiler central heating systems, and particularly when they are Government funded.

Someone, somewhere is taking this money under false pretencies and should not be allowed to continue to do so.

Our Household consists of:

Myself aged 63
My wife, aged 59 and suffering with arthritic pain
Our 26 year old daughter who has special needs having Downs Syndrome
My Wife's Father who is aged 64 years

As you can I hope see, we do need our heating.

Our address is:
46 Sandpiper
Wilnecote
Tamworth
Staffs
B77 5NT

Telephone: 01827 728534

We trust and hope that you will be able to assist ourselves with this problem.

Thanking you with all our best wishes

Yours Sincerely
Michael. K. Davies

Monday, 20 December, 2010 11:46:40This Email address has changed
From: "christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk" <christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk>View
To: michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Thank you for your email. Unfortunatley, this email address is no longer in use and your mail has been re-directed to the new address. If you are a constituent, please send all future emails to christopher.pincher.mp@parliament.uk.

Monday, 20 December, 2010 13:25:51Freezing in our home this winter
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: watchdog@bbc.co.uk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Watchdog

Please find following a copy of an email I have today sent to my local MP, Mr Christopher Pincher, concerning the efforts and fob-offs we have had to contend with concerning an heating system provided by the Government funded Warmfront/Warmsure.

Dear Mr Pincher,

In 2009 I became redundant and at the age then of 63. I then could not get find an opportunity to get myself back into work.

The Tamworth Job centre advised me to apply for pension credit. This I did with success.

Because our then central heating boiler had been condemed and shut down by British Gas, we were informed that, as part of being on pension credit, we could apply for a Government backed scheme that funding would be found for a new central heating system through Warmfront.

In March of this year our funded central heating system was installed. Coming as it did at the start of the warmer Spring and Summer months, we had no cause to use the heating system.

At the start of the present cold spell, perhaps some two months ago, we felt the need to utilise our new system to warm our house and provide hot water. Almost immediately our problems stated.

In the past 8 weeks we have had four engineers call to fix problems with the system. The last engineer found that a valve/switch was faulty and that a new one would have to be ordered in, a process taking 5 days. We have now been without heating for 10 days during this period.

On a previous engineers visit, he informed us that the boiler would not fire because it was FROZEN !!!!!

Over the past few days we have found out that even British Gas will not touch the make of boiler that we have installed.

The last engineer who called, to look at our heating problem, told us that his Comany (a contracter to Warmsure) had stopped using this same make of boiler on their own non-contracted work.

We have found other householders now who have also had similar problems as ourselves with this same make of boiler .

What use is a central heating system that does not work when the winter weather is so cold?

Why are parts not readily available for central heating system during the winter?

Why are these installation organisations being allowed to fit what we now consider to be obsolete boiler central heating systems, and particularly when they are Government funded.

Someone, somewhere is taking this money under false pretencies and should not be allowed to continue to do so.

Our Household consists of:

Myself aged 63
My wife, aged 59 and suffering with arthritic pain
Our 26 year old daughter who has special needs having Downs Syndrome
My Wife's Father who is aged 64 years

As you can I hope see, we do need our heating.

Our address is:
46 Sandpiper
Wilnecote
Tamworth
Staffs
B77 5NT

Telephone: 01827 728534

We trust and hope that you will be able to assist ourselves with this problem.

Thanking you with all our best wishes

Yours Sincerely
Michael. K. Davies

brian tomlin left an annotation ()

MR tomlin ie boiler fited november 2010 ideal logic combi 30 from warm front january 2011 boiler leaked on to washing machine ideal came out to fix it they are refusing to pay for new washing machine despite senting them proof ie photos of water from boiler on washing machine then yesterday the 16.3 2011 it leaked again if you are having new boiler for god sake make sure they dont give you one from ideal

andrew left an annotation ()

Plz can some 1 tell me the user control on the boiler doz not work will it be the primary control {PUB}

julia bickley left an annotation ()

I received a letter today from Ideal telling me that after just three years after having the boiler fitted on the Warmfront scheme that i need to upgrade my boiler for a more energy efficient one (wasn't that half the reason the scheme was set up in the first place to replace non efficient boilers with "A rated" ones)and that i can get this new boiler at a cost of "only £17 a month".
This scheme is sounding more and more like a con to get as much profit from fitting substandard boilers into vulnerable peoples homes. Eaga made huge profits off the back of the government, rammed their extended warranties down peoples throats raking in more money and now ideal (sounds a bit dodgy that after three years they're sending me a letter telling me the boiler i had fitted is junk and needs replacing...are they psychic? It started leaking a month ago and now has three other leaks and no plumber will touch it, what a coincidence) are trying to rake in more money by getting people with very little money and therefore few options to pay for the standard of boiler they should have had in the first place...a boiler that only lasts three years... are they kidding???

Doris Busby left an annotation ()

My Isar Boiler was fitted 4 years ago under the Warm Front Scheme,it is not working at the moment and has already had 3 new circuit boards fitted,new controls to fill it as the other ones leaked all over the floor and as been a nightmare since I got it. Most heating engineers dont want to know when I give them the make, as they say the boilers are complete rubbish.
Surely some'one should be held accountable for putting these inferior boilers in our homes.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Accountability seems to be a banned word in Government......Maybe your MP should seek Accountability from the Energy and Climate Change Minister? www.theyworkforyou.come is worth exploring.....then when you have found who is who......www.whatdotheyknow.com or www.writetothem.com
Hope this helps Doris!

A Trundley left an annotation ()

I had a Isar ideal fitted five years ago by warm front have had nothing but trouble with it gone wrong three times mainly the hot water the engineer this time has suggested I have a chemical clean I live on my own and I use the hot water very little boiling the kettle to wash up mainly because it wastes ten ltrs of water before it starts getting hot as the boiler is situated at the opposite end of my bungelow to where my kitchen and bathroom is so why is it keep going wrong when I use it so little?

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Can only suggest you seek support from your MP or Defra.
I expect the guarantee hasn't covered it? Could you make a formal complaint to Warmfront scheme and ask MP to help get a response from the Cabinet Minister in charge of Warmfront scheme!

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

And here's me thinking it's just a bad ideal isar he30 that i got? From initial installation we've had nothing but trouble from this heap of rubbish! In the first 12mths. we had engineers out 13 times! Now after just 3 years the thing has expired! we are both Disabled with a range of illness's that require us to have heat? At present we have none? We also, are up & downstairs during the early hours. Warmfront say they will sort the problem within 28days --that's their policy? the Law states that they will do it between 7-10 days!
Under the sale of Good's Act 1982, this Boiler is NOT fit for purpose. I have my Solicitor at the ready should this not be sorted within the designated timeframe. Warm front are a Joke! they don't want to know, they fob you off with anything. They removed a better boiler that we had, to install this load of rubbish. Someone somewhere is on the take here, i mean the idea of warm front is good, it's whomever recommended this rubbish that would appear to be taking a backhander? Even the Gov/dept. are loathe to intervene, why is no-one bothered except the poor individuals that have to constantly complain about a second rate service & product? If i left it out for the Metal Thieves, --they wouldn't take it>

Andrew Strachan left an annotation ()

I am a boiler engineer and have come across these hideous machines a number of times. Generic problems with circuit boards, fans and diverter valves. Parts are not cheap either. This boiler was put in by eaga purely on a cost basis. They would have gained contract support from ideal for fitting so many, thus the price per unit they paid was minimal. In my opinion eaga was a complete waste of time and government money. As a private company i was not allowed to quote against them on the grant scheme. for the same amount of money, i would have given the customer a vaillant boiler. They are a total scam. Installations i have come across have also not conformed to building regulations, i.e no thermostatic radiator valves etc. Why they get away with it is criminal.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thanks for your contributions Steve and Andrew...I have to agree with you both!

R Mepham left an annotation ()

I am a gas engineer and these boilers are commonly known within the trade as lemons, generally only fitted to new builds as the builder buys in bulk and must be dirt cheap to buy and are also fitted in houses with vulnerable tenants or home owners on a regular basis on these government schemes. I would rather have a 20 year old boiler than an isar in my home. These are without a doubt the worst boiler ever to be sold to the British public. It is a complete crime that they have managed to get away with selling these things and I do feel for anyone that owns one.

On a positive note for me, it keeps me in an endless supply of work fixing them and eventually changing them!! I would advise anyone that has one to start saving for a new one, try a vaillant or veissman boiler and don't use any of the big players to fit it, use a local tradesman with a good reputation and if you have to finance it get a bank loan, it will still be cheaper than paying the larger companies massive amounts for the install. Even if they do offer "interest free" payments and "free servicing" nowt is for free so remember that.

Hope this is of some help to anyone suffering the wrath of these poorly engineered heaps of scrap metal!!

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thank you for contribution to the discussion R Mepham. It really helps to know what engineers think and also what boilers are recommended. Appreciate your time.

Steve kap left an annotation ()

My mum is 88. Warmfront under the pension credit scheme installed Ideal Isar HE24. The reason people are eligible for these boilers are because they are either pensioners or people with low or no income. Therefore, why recommend and install a boiler knowingly, that is not A rated and is known to be faulty. This is clarified by searching the web.

So the attitude is, lets help the old lady now and in 2/3 years she will have to have it repaired or, come back to us for a new boiler!!!
Where do they expect my mum to get the money from to pay for the repair?
This smells of corruption and I would like to be proved wrong.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sadly Steve, I believe the focus is 'political shine" ("look at us haven't we done well")not genuine help for vulnerable people. It seems politics is all about perception not reality! Seems you are a realist and I wish you & your Mum all very best. I suppose MP helping is a no go? Have a look on www.theyworkforyou.com to give you an idea of who may help. But all communication to Ministers etc must be via your MP. Sometimes they get the bit between their teeth and if we dont ask we wont ever get I suppose. Then next protest is voting day!

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Hello Steve,
My impressions is that Warm Front was just another "Quango" I have tried everything I could think of, & other people's ides as well, to no effect? No- one bt, no- one is interested?
As far as the DCC I concerned it's Eaga, or Carrillion's problem? All mail is redirected to them, & of course you just run into a blank wall.
In the end I gave up, I had this rubbish boils ripped out & a new Worcester Bosch fitted.
Both myself & wife just couldn't wait the length if time required to sort things out, as we both suffer from conditions that require us to need heating.
I feel sorry for the many people who have to put up with shoddy boilers etc!
We are fortunate to have had the monies to exchange the boiler.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sorry to hear you have also had runaround Steve.....yes its another bl**dy quango I agree! Thankfully you had enough funds to sort this problem out
Thanks for trying to get somewhere but its sooooo difficult isnt it!
All pointing in opposite direction and no accountability!

Steve kap left an annotation ()

Gents,

Thank you for your replies.
I wonder what would happen if it was one of their parents?
I bet it would be looked at and sorted rather quickly!!

There's no difference between taking money off vulnerable people for repairs to a known and shoddy boiler to, breaking into their home and taking their money!!

I also consider this as fraud and the government department responsible for authorising these installations, is an "accessory" to this fraud.

I would be more than happy if someone from the department consider my comments as derogatory and wish to take action against me, as the truth will come out and no doubt the media would be interested!!

But, as you have both mentioned and reading through, they just dont care.

In fact, I have a media contact and may request a meeting with their consumer advisor!

Now thats an idea.

Steve

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Good luck Steve ...anything that makes the media is worth doing....not sure anyone will run with it tho!Few others have been there too: http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend...

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Go for it Steve, however as D.Speers says many have tried? I think the DECC have just decided that this "Hot Potato" should be ignored & eventually it will go away?
I just feel "gutted" for the many people who were "conned" into having this pile of scrap installed & who are stuck with it? As you quite rightly say, it is the pooreset, disabled, less well off people who are the victims here. What was a good idea has been turned into a Moneymagnet by EAGA.
They wanted me to take out another Warm Front Grant to resolve the problems i had with mine? This just infuriated me more as it is just Taxpayers money they are wasting?
It cost me £1500.00 to have my new boiler fitted, & not a penny came from the taxpayer. The principle alone of what they were wanting me to do, just infuriates me?
I really do think though that EAGA are the rip off's here though.Now Carillion are just jumping on the bandwagon. the whole system stinks to high heaven. Never mind the West Coast Railway farce, this is in the same league!

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Just to say I had an Ideal boiler fitted incorrectly, the drainage part was wrongly installed, it flooded my home (when I was away) and resulted in a massive insurance claim. My kitchen needed replacing and also flooring! Warmfront's (pre Carillion) installers were eventually held to account, claimed against and dropped by Warmfront...Cold comfort nonetheless, as it took me a year to resolve via 10 companies! Thankfully I have a terrier instinct so letting go wasnt an option but only 24 hours in day and living must be part of this! Good luck with chasing this....I really do feel MPs must be held to account and in my case are whenever I vote!

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Hi,
Like yourself I too never like to yield to anything/anyone if I have been in justly done to.
In this case however, my Solicitor was at fault, as she gave some duff advice, resulting in my having to "drop" my proposed County Court action against them.
What I did find "amusing" though was Carillions remarks at times, like " it was only guaranteed for 2 years" ? They forget to say that it wasn't fit for purpose?
It's bad enough these days with Cowboy Builders etc! Without the likes of these "ripping off" innocent poor, people?
It makes my blood boil.
I just wish I could help them all financially? Maybe I I win th Lottery I Will!
Cheers,

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thanks Steve and as we have found its not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog!

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

Colin Wilcox,
i have been fighting Ideal fos the last 3 months over the PCB boards in the isar boilers i thought i was getting some were when the wanted the board back to check if it was a manufactoring fault before i would send the board back i wanted to know what they would do
if it was a manufactoring fault the said they would consider paying the repair bill and for me to send them a copy of my bill£270 when i checked to see if they had tested it they said yes it had a component
fault but they couldent say why it had gone so they are still not going to do anything about it i am still
waiting for answers to my last two emails

D. Speers left an annotation ()

So sorry to read of agro you are having Colin andI really dont know what to advise except try to get MP & press involved. MP will react if press watching!
Its like pushing water uphill....sorry and good luck.

Steve left an annotation ()

Came home from holiday to find my Ideal Isar HE30 had developed a fault. This was also fitted through Warmfront scheme. I called an engineer to fix it and he laughed when I told him the make of the boiler!I too think we have been ripped off through this scheme. Is there nothing I can do to get my boiler replaced with something that is reliable so I can be confident I can keep my family of six warm in the winter? I fear the worst, that this is only the start of my problems after reading previous posts. Like most people I am struggling to make ends meet and cannot afford to keep paying for repairs to something that should be reliable for 10 years plus!Has anyone out there had problem free Isar boilers?I very much doubt it. Steve, Bristol

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Hi Steve sorry to read of your problems with Isar boilers and like you I am living on tenderhooks wondering if/when my Isar boiler will 'give up the ghost! Fingers crossed for now! I believe the Gas Board are one of only companies that will service it and last service engineer told me the large heat exchanger is usually where the fault develops. Cold comfort though! I expect all those out there with an Ideal Isar boiler that is behaving and a joy to own may not feel like writing on here....but I certainly would love to read some really positive info too.
Good luck

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

So sorry to hear of your problems Steve. Am afraid the only good news I can offer on these 2nd rate water heaters is that I got shut of Mine after 2yesrs of hell.
I know it's no comfort to yourself, but, I was in a similar position to you. The only crumb of comfort I got was that Eaga was taken over by Carrillion, but, they seem to be just as bad in that they are only into Making profits?
This should be a National Scandal, but, the powers that be are very good at keeping their heads down.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sadly Dive, Dive, Dive is the default setting for them all! Must try and make MP/DECC accountable!Use www.theyworkforyou.com to find out about MP and www.whatdotheyknow.com to ask questions under FOI. Just remember to ask for published info.
Good luck

D. Speers left an annotation ()

From Alison at Dept of Energy and Climate Change (Decc)
"Under the Warm Front Scheme, there is a process in place to handleCustomer complaints. Part of the complaint handling process includes monthly meetings between DECC and Eaga to review the complaints received
and information collected, discussing specific cases and reviewing Key Performance Indicators (KPI's) relating to Upheld complaints. If Eaga
fail to meet the target KPI in terms of customer complaints upheld they are liable to pay the department for their failure.
May be interesting to ask if same system exists under Carillion?

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

This is an email from hannah lord@decc.gsi.gov.uk

Thankyou for your email and highlighting potential issueswith the PCBsin the ideal boilers that have previosly been installed under the warm front scheme we were made aware of the problem several years ago when the issue first came to light with several warm front customers. at this,once this problem was highlighted to us the issues were ivestigated in conjunction with the manufacturer andthat specific boilerwas discontinued from being usedon warm frontand a new boilerused on the scheme instead the new boilers chosen were checked and tested for there reliability. any of the ideal isar boilers that where installed under warm front before they were discontinued and where an issue was reported with the PCB were investigated and a new PCB insalled were required.

can i ask you have you experienced any specific problems with your boiler under the warm front scheme.
Hannah Lord

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thanks for posting Colin, Looks like Hannah lord@decc.gsi.gov.uk could be a useful contact and i would urge all having (had) problems with Ideal Isar to contact Hannah and update her!
I will also post this link on Twitter

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Just for your record the address fo Hanah doesn't work? I've just had my mail returned saying that the address is undeliverable?
Cheers
Steve

D. Speers left an annotation ()

So typical isnt it Sorry for any inconvenience Steve....will post info on Twitter too.

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

Email address for HannahLord is

hannah.lord@decc.gsi.gov.uk
Colin

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

I have forwarded these emils to Hannah Lord

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

another email from Hannah Lord
Thank you for your emails an explaining the problems you have experience with your Ideal boiler PCBs
In relations to the points you have raised .
Once the pcb issue was raised with the manufactureres thefaulty pcb would have hbeen discontinued and a replacement one manufactored and issued by Ideal.
This new pcb would have been used for all new boilersmanufactured after this point and also used to replace any pcbs that were reported to be faulty and brokenin boilers previously installed under the warm front scheme.
Since the issue with the faulty pcbs had been addressedby the manufacturer ther have not been any further or highlighted issues with the pcb in Ideal boilers to the best of uor knowledge.
Therfore any pcbs replaced in Ideal boilers under the warm front scheme after this time will have been the revised replacement pcbs and therefore should not have any ongoing issues

It is worth noting that a further three years had passed after the end of the warm front warranty before the pcb in your boiler had failed for the second time .
It appears unfortunate the pcb has failed again after a relatively short time.
However there is no evidece to suggest that the pcb failure was related to the originally identified and addressed issue with the pcb in the Ideal boilers as heating systems have many working parts they should be serviced and when the warranty runs out you should have a repair co ntract

Steve kap left an annotation ()

Re my previous thread:
I dont understand why the media are worried about talking about Warmfront ripping off vunerable people, especially the elderly.
In the end, I arranged a policy with Ideal, even though the pcb failed, for £300 a year.
Just to replace the pcb was £250 but this was covered by the policy!!
So all it needs is to breakdown again and we are in profit!!
They even came on a Sunday to fix it!!
And its a 24 hour service, except Christmas day.
So, if it does goes down again, which they all do during winter, at least they will come and repair it within 24 hours(famous last words).
And, will be paying by quarterly instalments to make it easier.

I know we should not have to do this but it was my last option..

Steve

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thanks for helpful updates guys, and good to have Hannah Lord's email address...Thanks for sorting emails Colin....much appreciated. You are so right Steve...of course we "shouldn't have to" but peace of mind is worth more. Good to spread the payments too.
If it wasnt so dire it might even be funny!

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Hey Steve,
You do what's best for you. Just a flaming shame that Carrillion/Eaga appear to be on a roll at the taxpayers expense? I know some people resent their tax going towards this anyway, but, I'll bet they would be even more incensed if they knew exactly what their monies have paid for?
And, yes you are right, it's hurting the very people that it wasn't supposed to.it really us a National Disgrace.
Best wishes

Steve left an annotation ()

Hi. Just an update. I finally got an engineer to look at the boiler and, guess what, he said the pcb needed replacing! Over £200 including labour. I was all ready to give him the go ahead the next day to order the part but I though I would try turning the boiler on just to see why happened. It's been working fine ever since! Not sure how long it will last but at least I have my heating and hot water back. I guess him fiddling around must have got it working again. Does this prove that it's not the pcb after all? Thanks for all the helpful info chaps. I'll keep you updated. Steve, Bristol. P. S. Ideal insurance sounds good as a last resort if it covers pcb.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Hey RESULT! Glad all seems to be going ok Steve and thanks for letting us know. Keep us posted Thanks.

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Result! Great. So if it's working now, it's definitely not the board? Sometimes "engineers" do not bother testing the boards, they must hazard a guess? Unless it's a recognised fault with the board, they should last a long time as it printed circuitry is usually dependable. Another little scam, is when you get an alarm person offering a yearly service? There's nothing to service? It's all printed circuits, yet some people fall hook line an sinker and keep the contractor in wages. My alarm system works fine, and it's over 20 years old.
Don't get conned! Always think about what s being offered, and, if in doubt get a second opinion.
Anyway, glad to hear your problem has been solved.
Good luck

Donna left an annotation ()

Hi not sure if anyone can offer advice. I too have and ideal isar boiler fitted under the government scheme. Just after the second year it needed a pcb replacement. All seemed to be working ok for the following 2 years until I turned the heating on and was rather alarmed by the booming noise coming from my boiler...when I went outside I could hear bubbling noises. I immediately turned my heating off as I thought the noise from the boiler was so loud it was going to explode! I called Corgi out who I was insured with who sent an engineer..he turned it on and winced a little as the boiler began to make the noise and then informed me I needed a power flush which I was not covered for and would cost me 460.00! and very often then not I would need a new heat exchanger topping that up to 750.00 plus vat! When I questioned how did he know I needed a power flush he duly took a sample of my water in a clear jug, and showed it me..I said but it's clear?? he said ahh yeah but it smells! Myself and my kids are freezing now and face the prospect of Christmas with no hot water or heating because I simply don't have that kind of money.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

So worrying, not only are boiler installations fundamentally flawed so is aftercare! There is something very wrong with this scheme and it appears to focus on the most vulnerable!
Common Government...sort it out!

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

Donna,
the system should have been flushed when warm front
fitted the boiler get corgi back and tell them to repair the boiler any problem go to trading standerds
and let them deal with it for you

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Good advice Colin, Thank you.

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Power flush? What rubbish. He only time when you need this is after many years of having your heating on? You were quite right when you said the water was clear. A power flush is for getting rid of dirty water usually when over years minute bits settle at the bottom of a radiator. That is usually preceded by the radiator not getting hot all over, usually th bottom part remains cold because ofthe build up of debris. (Don't confuse this with air in the system when only it just needs bleeding).
Many companies "scam" people into having th system flashed when it doesn't need it? It's just a money making scam.
If I were you i would get another engineer for. Second opinion.
The bubbling noise you heard sound like there is too little water in the system? What reading does your pressure meter say?
Usually, I should be between 2-2.5lbs. IF this is the case, just fill it up Neil it reaches said pressure, bleed your radiators, then check water pressure again.once completed it should be fine.
Do not worry about it exploding, as, most combi's these days are fitted with a pressure valve that "blows" (outside pie going to the drain) there are many safety features fitted as standard on md modern boilers.
Also, when your boiler was fitted they should have put an inhibitor in the system which in itself keeps your water clean.
I think he is trying it on with you?
Don't be panicked into paying out unnecessary, they, know you have little understanding of the system, and don't they just cash in on it?
Cheers

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thank you so much guys for all the helpful info......I hope Donna gets this in time! Am sure your advice will help many! Much appreciated!

Donna left an annotation ()

Thank you so much for your advice. I wrote Corgie an email explaining that I thought the information they had was incorrect, and that my system was not dirty as the engineer they had appointed had suggested, I also demanded a second opinion from a different company. The response I received was not one which I had anticipated, I expected some kind of defence, but no, they said ..and I quote 'we will never send this engineer out to your home again!' and they have arranged for another company to come out on Wednesday for a second opinion.
After spending most of the night desperately looking on the internet for someone with a similar issue as mine, I found many many people distraught having been landed with this boiler, old and vulnerable people. I managed to find on you tube an actual video footage of someone's Isar boiler making the same horrendous explosive noise as mine, his problem proved to be the gas inlet valve regulator, someone else suggested a blocked condensation pipe, or s trap clogged..having read the information here I feel far better armed and braver to face this engineer on Wednesday. Thank you so much...I will keep you updated.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Great News Donna,
Thank you for sharing!
You may still have issues with your boiler but you certainly sound well informed on how to sort it! Thank you and please keep us updated! May be good to post the You Tube link just in case anyone else ids having similar problems. This link will be posted on Twitter!
Thanks again
Dee

Steve Winder left an annotation ()

Hi again Donna, good for you girl. Glad to hear your email was taken on board.
This "gurgling,bubbling". Noise? Is it like an explosion like a shotgun going off outside? And only happens infrequently?
If so, it took Eaga a woe 12mths for them to find out the cause, which was the heating plate! Believe it I not, they replaced it with one from. A Previous one that ideal had stopped making?
If it's a definite water bubbling sound, it could be a few things, but, from my limited knowledge, it would 't/ definitely shouldn't cost too much to put right.
However, a couple if things you should watch for now that winter is nearl upon us.
Outsid you should hav a black plastic pipe leading to your grid? On frosty nights/days this can freeze as water is continually going through it (condensing boilers have this pipe)
If this happens your boiler will not work, but, before you call some engineer out who will no doubt charge th earth, run your electric hair dryer ove it until the ice melts.
Also, if this does happen to you, make sure you go to B&Q and get some "lagging" of th foam type, & cover the pipe with it. This will stop it freezing in the future. Could be an idea to do it anyway, then if your boiler stops this simple problem can be eliminated.?
Again the bubbling could be air in the system? Maybe even the pump? Well the system can b sorted by bleeding your radiators, but, keeping an eye on your pressure gauge, and he pump has a bleed nipple on it.
Anyway, after this you may gain your plumbing cert! ? Lol
Cheers

D. Speers left an annotation ()

What stars you all are...really helpful Steve and your info on "Heating plate" I can add to this because when I had my Ideal boiler serviced (and only British Gas will do this) they said it was "usually the heating plates which cause problems" ....RG not had gurgling noises yet!....and info on condense pipe v.helpful! First condense pipe plumbed in along a wall and attached to down pipe (hence flooded kitchen et al)now into crystals in a filtration system! Corgi oversaw this! Old Corgi would come out and check installation Free of charge but not sure about(Corgi replacement) Gas Safe!
Steve's advice sound good re pressure gauge and if you pass your plumbing cert can I book you?:o) V.helpful Thank you.

Donna left an annotation ()

Hi Everyone,
Well Halleluiah you’ll be pleased to know I have hot water and heating!!
The second heating engineer from a different company arrived this morning; I was prepared with my little list of things for him to check before he could even think about heading for the door.
However, as soon as I explained about the noise he said he had a fairly good idea what it was...the first thing he tried was the ‘s’ trap. It looked rather awkward to get at, and he said some engineers can’t be bothered to check this, when he got it out he gasped at what he saw. He said it was the worst blockage he had ever seen in a boiler, he had to clear the tube by digging it out with a screwdriver, it was solid as a rock, interesting bearing in mind I have been paying for a service every year.
As soon as he put my boiler back together, he flicked the switch and he presto! I was so relieved that I cried, I think it was with sheer relief that my kids and I could look forward to a warm Christmas and I might just be able to afford a few presents for them... I had resolved myself to the fact that we would be destined to spend Christmas cold and with no gifts for the kids.
The engineer really seemed to know his stuff and was appalled that the previous engineer had misdiagnosed my system as needing a power flush. He said that the engineer should have picked up on the s trap in his service 6 weeks earlier and certainly on his call to repair the system. He advised me to insist that the s trap is cleaned at least every other service, and to save my money to replace the boiler when I could afford it. He said that this boiler is synonymous with issue’s, and the common opinion which is shared by most engineers is that it’s possibly one of the worst boilers ever , and it is an absolute travesty that these were fitted into the homes of the most vulnerable.
I would like to thank all for your help and comments, I am so glad I found your comments on here because without them I would have been flushing all that money down the drain and would not have solved my problem. The advice I will be taking with me.. is that as soon as I can afford it I will be getting this boiler out of my home!
I hope that anyone reading this, having the same issue’s as I had with my Ideal Isar boiler, does not take the first advice given and seeks a second opinion.
Thank you once again xx

Donna left an annotation ()

ps the you tube link which I found where someone else was experiencing the very same boiler noise as my boiler was making is as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsGi-Dhkd...

Interesting to read that the guy had the gas inlet
valve/regulator replaced first and then the s trapped cleared..does make me wonder if this is yet another case of a heating engineer cashing on the misfortune of the poor people who have this boiler..I had no part replaced just the trap cleared.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Well done Donna....and thanks for the update. TG there are some engineers with integrity...you sound like you found a good one!
Am glad the link helped and I'm sorry you have had the worry of it all . Hopefully all is now sorted and thanks to Steve, Colin and Steve for excellent advice!
Take care and glad you are warm again
Dee x

colin wilcox left an annotation ()

Hi Donna,
glad you didnt let them brush you off with flushing the system and got them back to repair the boiler thats what you are paying them for should report
the first enginer to trading standers to stop them doing it to other people

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Good advice Colin!

Vinod Patel left an annotation ()

We have an Ideal ICOS HE24 (Same model as the Isar)

My Installation was carried out by Iguana under the Warm Front Scheme. It was to replace a 13 year old boiler that was deemed inefficient. I stated that the pressure of the Hot water was poor, so the surveyor suggested that we move the boiler out of the kitchen into the bathroom upstairs and have the cold water tank in the loft, so we paid the approx. £350 excess.

The boiler since has given us no end of problems and we have had engineers here because of gas throttling and air locks, constant leaks, washing machine noises, loud knocking. EagaHeat then said that the radiators throughout the house had to be replaced as they were rusting and the valves were the old type and that they were all end of life. They tried to fix some of the problems and said that they couldn’t. In October 2012 boiler stopped working completely and the Home Insurance company came out and replaced the electrics and electronics and it worked for a few hours. The next time the engineer said that there was an issue and with the circulation and the insurance company insisted on a power flush. It was noticed that the boiler was leaking lots of water, but insurance company insisted on a power flush. We did this and replaced the radiators (approx. £2000).
Insurance company then confirmed heat exchanger and that it was beyond economical repair. Warmfront Advisor also said beyond economical repair, so complete reinstall in April/May at £3000-£4000
Now it is 3 months without heating (except plug ins and a gas heater, hot water has to be done using pots and buckets)
Three vulnerable (registered disabled) people in house and I get working tax credits. In desperation in the sub-zero snowy temperatures, I managed to get the boiler operational very occasionally by forcing the boiler to light by disconnecting the sensors and trial and error. When it does work, it billows steam through the vent and the condensate pipes, but this is less dangerous than leaving the Gas fire (CO?)on all night as is necessary as we have 9" solid walls and getting burns from boiling water on the stove.
Ideal DECC and Carillion have all been aware in the last few weeks, but have ignored our requests to get the boiler inspected.
Did EAGA and Ideal are about a mile of each other in Newcastle work together to win the government deal and when Carillion bought them the staff tried to get their hands on the £60m pile of profits. How many vulnerable people and non-vulnerable people have been left in situations...this is the tip of the Iceberg I guess?
I did some quick research and found that they used a section of 15mm pipe in the flow return, so explains why the water heating got priority and the 15mm gas feed some 13m away from the meter caused the vibration when the Gas oven and stoves were all working.
Have tried the DECC and Green Deal. We desperately need to get the heating working for the health of the kids and my wife.
Any suggestions?

Vinod Patel (Harrow)

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Hi Vinod....I completely understand your situation and I'm sorry you and family are having to endure this! I can only suggest you get your MP involved!
So many of us have had to put up with this shoddy service....and is you want to let MP have a copy of this please feel free!
Good luck and sorry haven't got magic wand!
Dee

Donna left an annotation ()

Hi Vinod, as you can see from my previous posts I too was having problems with my boiler and was recommended a power flush. After speaking to several heating engineers quite a few of them told me that a power flush can cause more trouble then they solve, I was also told not to expect any more than 8- 10 yrs of life for an Isar boiler max! Since I called in a reputable heating engineer who established fairly quickly that it was a pipe buried quite far back (sorry I'm not very technical) of the boiler that was causing the problem, and he unblocked it, everything has been working fairly ok. However, based on the fact the common consensus amongst the plumbing and heating world is that this is a really bad boiler, I am now saving as much as I can to go towards a new boiler. I have recently noticed on tv an advert for a company offering a new Worcester boiler for 17.00 a month, I have not looked into it in any great detail but it might be an option as I gather from your post that you are already paying into an insurance scheme and I would guess a new boiler would come with some kind of guarantee for a few years at least. A Worcester was one of the boilers which a few of the engineers had recommended, so this maybe worth consideration. On a closing note, as Dee suggested write to your mp, this is a shocking situation, especially as you have disabled people living with you, the more people are made aware of this the better. Good luck

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thanks for update Donna and for info on Power flush.
I agree make your MP aware (and accountable to you their constituent!)
Vinod if disabled people living with you, I would definitely seek more support.
Look on www.theyworkforyou.com to find out name of local MP if necessary. Most have a website which should give dates of MP surgery. Call and make an appointment and please feel free to share this link!
Will also place on Twitter.
Good luck.

Vinod Patel left an annotation ()

Hi,

Thanks everybody for the valuable advice. I have written to Carillion, my MP and DECC after a investigated and found that the failure was not probably not all to do with the Ideal Icos boiler, but what looks and other Gas Safe installers have identified as what could only be described as a sabotaged installation.
When the installer was moving the boiler upstairs, he used a 15mm pipe to connect two 22mm pipes and this is evident in the photos' that I attached in my email to them. This coupled with suggesting that the boiler and pump be left on the highest setting by the EAGA installer and the "experts" that were later called in to inspect it.
The analogy I gave was connecting two 4 lane motorways with a dual carriageway limited to 35 MPH, then advising all drivers to drive as fast as possible to avoid any problems.
Luckily I have all the evidence and the emails and asked that they send in a Chartered Institute (CIPHE) member to do a thorough report.
I have had a reply from the MP, but not from Carillion so far. We are managing to just about keep warm, but means waking up early and getting to bed late for me as we are using one gas fire and three electrical heaters on 24 hours when the temperature are in single figures.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Well done Vinod....but we really shouldnt have to work this hard! Great analogy BTW ...esp as previous DECC Minister was Chris Huhne I believe!!
So pleased you are getting somewhere and would be good to hear from Carillion....please keep us posted!
What a nightmare for you all.
Thanks again.

Vinod Patel left an annotation ()

An update:Carillion have denied any responsibility, DECC taking the side of Carillion and ignoring the "smoking guns" evidence together with emails and layman explanations. Local MP unable to help and wont raise the matter higher which is an option.
Despite the 3 main points (not including the obvious shoddy work which is evident). The smoking guns evidence is:
1. Wrong pipework for the size of boiler
2. Wrong piping to the return flow of the radiators
3. Incompatible boiler to be fed with a water softener
Now into 6th month without central heating.
Giving up soon and writing off, but will put it up on YouTube. I also feel sorry for anybody else in the same position and the avoidable possible deaths related to the recent cold weather. DECC and ministers haven't denied any conflict of interest, but keep on asking for more and more evidence and yet all the evidence in the form of pipework/manuals and evidence of massive leaks now and previously are on site.
Can anybody suggest anything more that can be done, except to esclate to Keith Vaz and the commons select committee...if only I had the time!

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Thank you Vinod....seems you cant do anymore !
Try looking at another FOI I asked https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/w... seems to be some resolution on there....a guy called Jamie McDonald seems to be helping.
Worth a shot!
Good luck
Dee

Vinod Patel left an annotation ()

Thanks for the contact.

I will try the route of contacting Jamie to see if he can help.

Kindest Regards

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Good Luck and thank you for keeping us updated!
Dee

John Minor left an annotation ()

Hi, I have an Ideal Logic 24 combi boiler fitted three years ago under the warm front scheme which at the moment is not working. I have had an engineer out three times in the last three month to fix the problem. The first time it needed just a service and we noticed that this independent engineer took much longer to do the service than the previous one which was carried out by eaga under it's annual obligation.
When the service was carried out by the independent, he cleaned the electrode ignition and the electrode detection plugs and informed me that they would need changing next time.

Two or three weeks later the thing packed up again and this time he changed the plugs. A few weeks later (two) it stopped again and he needed to clean these two week old plugs again. So far £200 has been spent on this thing. Today the boiler has stopped and no amount of re-setting will solve the problem, I even cleaned the plugs myself but to no avail. I emailed warm front and got a standard reply which directed me to eaga, so I phoned them and got a recorded response giving me several options but because my installation was passed the two year mark the system just hung up.
Warm front system is totally useless, what is the point if these things are going to pack up after two or three years. We had an old system ripped out which may have been past it's best but at least it worked.

Regards John

[Name Removed] (Account suspended) left an annotation ()

Sorry to read of your situation John,Jamie McDonald seems to be your man. Thanks for posting and I hope Jamie will be in touch before long!
All best wishes
Dee

[Name Removed] (Account suspended) left an annotation ()

^^^^^^^^

Due to WDTK glitch, Dee is posting as me....

...good job she doesn't swear much!

[Name Removed] (Account suspended) left an annotation ()

Me Swear? B****Y rarely!Sorry this is Dee again!

Linda left an annotation ()

Well I hate to join this list. I suppose I have been lucky in a way - my Ideal Isar was fitted in 2007 under the Warm Front Grant and it worked quite well until a month ago. Since then it has been 4 service calls, 4 parts, Over £700 and it still does not work! I don't know how to start complaining but I am totally frustrated. I am just lucky it is summer and I don't need heat and can go to a friend's for a shower. But seriously this is just bad in every way! I am beside myself!

John Minor left an annotation ()

I had similar problems, so in frustration I opened the boiler and unplugged and re-plugged all the electrical sensors. I have not had a problem since. Prior to this I was calling out the plumber every fortnight, the boiler was making a terrible noise and all this has now gone and the unit is fine.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sorry to read of your situations John and Linda. Well done John on whatever you did to get problem sorted. I guess you must have some knowledge of electrical works....I may have found all too dangerous to contemplate! But then I don't know about boiler repairs etc. Jamie Mc Donald is man to help and he can be contacted at Carillion
The Square
2 Broad Street West
Castlegate
Sheffield
S1 2BQ
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/w... seems very helpful!

Lesley Parkinson left an annotation ()

Realise I am not alone here,had major problems back in November 2010 when I had an Ideal Logic 24 installed by Warmfront. Took over a month to install they took down my kitchen ceiling, ripped up 3 laminate floors...fair enough they did put this right.They also installed a 2nd pump as the heat was not getting to all of the radiators. However I then noticed that my gas consumption had massively increased despite me being very careful with when I had the heating on. So much for energy efficiency. I contacted Carrillion who fobbed me off saying it was out of the 2 year guarantee. The hot water has now stopped working and I now have to decide between a hefty repair bill or doing without until I can save the money for a new boiler. It certainly doesn't look like anyone is going to admit major defective inefficient boilers have been installed by warmfront .

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Sorry to read of problems Lesley! Will contact Jamie MCDonald at Carillion and get him to respond!

Nicola left an annotation ()

I can't believe that I've just read all these comments. I had an Ideal Isar HE24 fitted in February 2007 under the Warm Front Scheme as I qualified as a low earning single parent. I have had numerous breakdowns resulting in the following:-
The PCB was replaced on 13th March 2008
The trap and seal was replaced on 27th December 2008
The trap and seal was replaced on 28th October 2010
The Heat Exchange was replaced on 22nd September 2011
The PCB was replaced on 22nd September 2011
A pressure release valve was fitted on 10th March 2012
An engineer came on 6th August 2012 and changed the pipework on the trap/condensate pipe
The Heat Exchange was replaced again on 15th February 2013
A new pressure release valve was fitted on 7th March 2013.

I have had the boiler serviced every year since it was installed and the list above is not every date that it has broken down! I have paid for annual insurance ever since it was out of warranty with Warm Front - as you can see I don't dare not have it. However, my insurers have now increased my premium by £36 for my new policy which starts in February 2016. They have also now added a clause in their policy documentation which states "We have update the definition of "Beyond Economic Repair", introduced a definition of "User adjustment" and added a specific exclusion relating to the replacement of primary heat exchangers on boiler over 7 years of age".
I am going to contact my insurers to see where I stand on this. I am aware that my boiler is over 7 years of age but as my heat exchanger was only replaced (for a 2nd time) in February 2013 surely my boiler can only be classed as 3 years old when referring to the heat exchange element! I won't hold my breath.

D. Speers left an annotation ()

Jamie Mc Donald is man to help and he can be contacted at Carillion
The Square
2 Broad Street West
Castlegate
Sheffield
S1 2BQ
Sorry am battling ill health and can't respond individulaly except to say the gas board refused to service my ISAR (ideal boiler) and have ( at great cost) changed it. If Jamie no longer works for Carillion suggest you ask name of replacement and write to them; \GOOD LUCK!