Human rights I

Graeme MacLean made this Freedom of Information request to Lothian and Borders Police

The request was partially successful.

From: Graeme MacLean

29 August 2011

Dear Lothian and Borders Police Constabulary,

Under the Freedom Of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 of your
sovereign lady Queen Elizabeth II, I hereby make this lawful
request.

Upon the constabulary approaching a member of the public, what
details is a member of the public LAWFULLY OBLIGED to give when
asked by an officer.

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Alistair P Sloan left an annotation (29 August 2011)

Quote-marks The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 provides in Section 13 that the following information must be provided:

(a) Name
(b) Address
(c) Date of Birth
(d) Place of Birth (in such detail as the constable considers necessary or expedient for the purpose of establishing your identity)
(e) Nationality

The information is available in the public domain at the following URL: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995...

I hope that helps you and it saves you waiting for Lothian and Borders Police to respond

(Note: I'm not an employee of Lothian and Borders Police or any other Police Force. This is not legal advice)

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Lothian and Borders Police

7 September 2011

Dear Mr MacLean,

Thank you for your email which has been dealt with under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.

As you have not outlined the circumstances to which an officer would be approaching a member of the public, I am only in a position to provide you with generic advice. In short, it is unlawful for an individual not to provide their name and address when required to do so by a police officer. However, this will depend on the reason to which the individual has come into contact with the police, i.e are they a suspect for a crime/offence, a witness or a victim.

Perhaps the most relevant and overarching piece of legislation would be section 13 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 which empowers police officers to request the name, address, date of birth, place of birth and nationality from any person who they:

(a) suspect of committing/having committed an offence, or
(b) suspect has information in relation to an offence (i.e. a witness)

I hope this information is of use to you. If you have any questions about the above or I can help in any other way, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me again. However, under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, you have the right to appeal if you are dissatisfied with the way in which we have dealt with your enquiry. This should be done within 40 working days of receiving this email. If you wish to appeal please contact Rachel Watson, Head of Force Information Unit, Lothian and Borders Police, Police Headquarters, Fettes Avenue, Edinburgh, EH4 1RB. Please note that subsequent to this internal review there is a right of appeal to the Scottish Information Commissioner, Kinburn Castle, Doubledykes Road, St Andrews, Fife, KY16 9DS.

Kind Regards,

Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

9 September 2011

Dear Lothian and Borders Police.

Can the Force Information Unit (FIU) confirm:

If there exists in Scots common law any power that lawfully obliges
one to give there name, date-of-birth or address to a police
officer in Scotland ?

Thank you,

MacLean

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Lothian and Borders Police

3 October 2011

Dear Mr MacLean,

Thank you for your email.

Whilst Scots criminal law is based principally on a common law tradition it is not dependent on it. Scotland has developed a 'mixed' system of criminal law combining both common law and statute law and criminal procedure, i.e the officers ability to request nominal details from a member of the public, is largely contained in a single act of Parliament, namely the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995.

I hope this information is of help to you.

Kind regards,

Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

9 October 2011

Dear Lothian and Borders Police.

Are members of the public lawfully allowed to use there right to
silence or no comment when asked to give there details to an
officer on the premises given as an example in A & B ?

Thank you.

MacLean

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Lothian and Borders Police

9 October 2011

Thank you for emailing Lothian and Borders Police.  This office, Force
Information Unit, operates Monday to Friday 8am - 3.45pm.  Please note
that your email will not be dealt with outwith these hours. 

If you require an immediate response please dial 0131 311 3131.  If it is
an emergency please dial 999.

Thank you.

This email is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright.  Any
unauthorised use or disclosure of its content is prohibited.  The views
expressed in this communication may not necessarily be the views of
Lothian and Borders Police.

P Please, consider your environmental responsibility. Before printing
this e-mail ask yourself: "Do I need a printed copy?"

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Lothian and Borders Police

4 November 2011

Dear Mr MacLean,

Thank you for your email.

As per my original response to you, it is unlawful for an individual not to provide their name and address when required to do so by a police officer. This is, however, dependent on the reason to which the individual has come into contact with the police, i.e are they a suspect for a crime/offence, or a witness or a victim.

I have provided a link to the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 which may be of interest to you.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995...

As you have not outlined specific circumstances as to why an individual has come into contact with a police officer, the information I have provided above is generic advice.

I hope this information is of use to you.

Kind regards,

Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

8 December 2011

Dear Lothian and Borders Police

Is there person obliged to give there name if they have no birth
certificate ?

Yours faithfully,

MacLean

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Lothian and Borders Police

8 December 2011

Thank you for emailing Lothian and Borders Police.  This office, Force
Information Unit, operates Monday to Friday 8am - 3.45pm.  Please note
that your email will not be dealt with outwith these hours. 

If you require an immediate response please dial 0131 311 3131.  If it is
an emergency please dial 999.

Thank you.

This email is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright.  Any
unauthorised use or disclosure of its content is prohibited.  The views
expressed in this communication may not necessarily be the views of
Lothian and Borders Police.

P Please, consider your environmental responsibility. Before printing
this e-mail ask yourself: "Do I need a printed copy?"

Link to this

Lothian and Borders Police

13 January 2012

Dear Mr MacLean,

It is my understanding that a name and a birth certificate do not need to be the same: therefore the correlation is false.

I trust this is of use.

Regards,
Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

3 May 2012

Dear Lothian and Borders Police,

So in essance a person can give any name they like to an officer on
the spot so long as they stick by that name for a period after the
fact that is deemed 'long enough to be known by in the minds of the
legies'

Yours faithfully,

MacLean

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Lothian and Borders Police

22 May 2012

Dear Mr MacLean,

Thank you for your email.

As per my original response to you, perhaps the most relevant and overarching piece of legislation would be section 13 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 which empowers police officers to request the name, address, date of birth, place of birth and nationality from any person who they:

(a) suspect of committing/having committed an offence, or
(b) suspect has information in relation to an offence (i.e. a witness)

Any person who gives a false name to the police while they are investigating a crime or offence may be liable to arrest.

I trust this will assist.

Kind regards,

Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

4 June 2012

Dear Lothian and Borders Police.

When a police officer askes these details are you lawfully obliged
to comprehened what he/she is saying ?

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From: Graeme MacLean

4 June 2012

Dear Lothian and Borders Police,

I have withdrawn my request.
Yours faithfully,

MacLean

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Lothian and Borders Police

4 June 2012

Thank you for emailing the Force Information Unit.  This office is staffed
between 8am and 4pm Monday to Friday.  Please note that your email will
not be dealt with outwith these hours.
If you require an immediate response please dial 0131 311 3131.  If it is
an emergency please dial 999.

This email is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright.  Any
unauthorised use or disclosure of its content is prohibited.  The views
expressed in this communication may not necessarily be the views of
Lothian and Borders Police.

P Please, consider your environmental responsibility. Before printing
this e-mail ask yourself: "Do I need a printed copy?"

Link to this

Lothian and Borders Police

4 June 2012

Dear Mr MacLean,

Thank you for your email. I note that you have sent an email stating you wish to withdraw a request, can you confirm it is the request below?

Many thanks,

Sarah Aitken
Force Information Unit

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From: Graeme MacLean

8 June 2012

Dear Lothian and Borders Police.

Yes I can confirm. I am withdrawing the request as it seems the
crimianl procedure Scotland act is very questionable and it lends
its self more to judicial and government debate for its
appropriateness within a democratic society than using public money
with FOISRs.

My main concern is not the name, address or date of birth per say
as I can see who in an emergency obstinacy from citizens can mean a
matter of life and death when trying to find a dangerous threat but
the empowerment of police to compel one to state there nationality
and race/ethnic profile, I don’t understand.

I note the constables right to arrest one for refusing yet the
legitimacy and lawfulness is something that if challenged by a
citizen is confirmed or rejected by a court after the fact what the
police establish by thinking is not always correct. There are many
race/faith groups that take objection to this kind of ethnic
profiling, for obvious reasons...in fact unless I am mistaken the
Jewish people have a right to withhold some information/or not
commit anything in writing for historical reasons as the polcie
manual so instructs. Indeed it is entirely possible for a member of
the public to arrest a constable if he/she breaks the law after all
we are all equal and citizens arrest is as valid as a police arrest
in some cases, all that needs to happen is that the officer refuses
to give his name, rank and number. In fact if he/she dose refuse
not only dose it seem Scots law empowers a citizen to arrest but
the Geneva convention that governs armed personal (including police
with batons) gives the person the right to treat those that refuse
as a threat under international law. Hence why police can
rightfully arrest somebody for refusing to state there name address
and date of birth at least. Or if the person refuses to take there
hands out there pockets.

There is Scots case law (sighted at a sheriff court by a solicitor
arguing in the defence of a person who claimed to be the subject of
police brutality *it is on public record) that under Scots common
case law a judge admonished a young man for kicking an under cover
police officer in the testicles because the officer pulled him into
a car and refused to identify himself. The judges reasoning seemed
to be that it was right since the boy was only doing what is right
defending himself form somebody he perceived he was being abducted
by and who refused to state he was the police with ID. This is
common law, common sense law.

But that of course is on a case by case basis and is not
recommended. My point being is that people have human rights to
privacy and we live in a diverse society, police as well as
citizens are equal before the law therefore I struggle to see how
in a democratic society such a government enactment as the criminal
procedure act can be so flexible as to encompass ethic profiling.
This is Scotland after all. Polcie compliance only is enforceable
if it is lawful and we should never co-operate with a person who
breaks the law, police constable or citizen. I am sure any judge
worth there salt would agree.

I think we are both right on certian points.

Just incase anybody is reading this from the public DONT refuse to
give you name, date of birth or address as even the Geniva
convetion requires you to do this for an officer or face arrest.
Also keep your hands out your pockets at all times. The police have
a right to feel safe as much as you do.

Interesting times we live in these days.

I withdraw my request.

Thank you.

MacLean

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