Fixed Penalty Notice

Waiting for an internal review by Ministry of Justice of their handling of this request.

Dear Ministry of Justice,

I have been looking into the definition of a "Fixed Penalty Notice"

I refer to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c.53) which gives the following definition in Section 52:

"(1)
In this Part of this Act “fixed penalty notice” means a notice offering the opportunity of the discharge of any liability to conviction of the offence to which the notice relates by payment of a fixed penalty in accordance with this Part of this Act."

This has left me with 3 questions I hope you can clarify::

Question 1.
The definition states that the "Charge" can be discharged. Please can you detail ALL the available ways within Law to discharge?

Question 2.
The definition uses the word "Liability"? There are many differing types of "Liability": business, occupier's, parents', product, strict, vicarious etc etc.
Please can you confirm which type of liability it is referring too?

Question 3.
My interpretation leads me to see that the definition DOES NOT state the ONLY way to discharge the penalty is by payment to which the Notice relates too.
Can you confirm this to be true?

I did initially ask this of my local Police Station. They advised asking the Law Society. I acted on that advice here:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cl...
As you can see the Law Society is unable to provide legal advice.

Yours faithfully,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

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Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

Can I have some type of update on my request please as this is now 3 weeks over due.

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

Thank you for your email.

We forwarded your request of the 2nd February 2010 to the Ministerial
Correspondence Unit ([email address]) on the 3rd
February 2010.

We will not be dealing with this request under the Freedom of
Information Act, but the Ministerial Correspondence Unit will forward to
an appropriate business area for them to arrange a response.

Regards

Hannah Law
Data Access and Compliance Unit
0203 334 5274

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brian ovens left an annotation ()

Would love to hear the outcome of this request, please keep us informed. Great questions btw.

Nicholas Taylor left an annotation ()

Thank you Brian.

I will indeed keep you updated on the outcome of this request.

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

You response gives a lack of detail as to why you refuse to answer this request under the Freedom of Information Act.

As such, can you please give exacting detail as to the reasoning why you came to the decision you have?

Also the e-mail address you supplied that you forwarded my request on to is for the Ministry of Justice anyway?
This has me some what perplexed as i'm sure you can understand seen as you replied on behalf of the Ministry of Justice.

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

Please can you send the question again, as I may be able to give further
guidance.

Thanks

show quoted sections

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

My request was as follows:

"Dear Ministry of Justice,

I have been looking into the definition of a "Fixed Penalty Notice"

I refer to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c.53) which gives the following definition in Section 52:

"(1) In this Part of this Act “fixed penalty notice” means a notice offering the opportunity of the discharge of any liability to conviction of the offence to which the notice relates by payment of a fixed penalty in accordance with this Part of this Act."

This has left me with 3 questions I hope you can clarify:

Question 1.
The definition states that the "Charge" can be discharged. Please can you detail ALL the available ways within Law to discharge?

Question 2.
The definition uses the word "Liability"? There are many differing types of "Liability": business, occupier's, parents', product, strict, vicarious etc etc.
Please can you confirm which type of liability it is referring too?

Question 3.
My interpretation leads me to see that the definition DOES NOT state the ONLY way to discharge the penalty is by payment to which the Notice relates too.
Can you confirm this to be true?

I did initially ask this of my local Police Station. They advised asking the Law Society. I acted on that advice here:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cl...
As you can see the Law Society is unable to provide legal advice.

Yours faithfully,

Nicholas Taylor"

This request can be viewed in its entirety here:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/fi...

I would like to take this opportunity to point out this request is currently 28 days over due. As such a speedily response would be gratefully appreciated.

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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Thank you for your e-mail.

If your message was a request for information please be advised that your
request is being dealt with and you will receive a written acknowledgement
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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the attention of
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Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or
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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

Thank you for sending me the email, as Hannah informed you this has been
sent to the general enquiries as the questions you ask are not freedom
of information questions.

Regards

show quoted sections

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

Again I repeat my response to Hannah making the same statement:

"Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

You response gives a lack of detail as to why you refuse to answer this request under the Freedom of Information Act.

As such, can you please give exacting detail as to the reasoning why you came to the decision you have?"

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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If your message was a request for information please be advised that your
request is being dealt with and you will receive a written acknowledgement
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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the attention of
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Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

I hereby give Data Access & Compliance Unit 3 days notice to answer my original FOI request fully.
I will expect an answer by Friday 9th April 2010 at the very latest. That date is more than a month past the specified time set out in the Freedom Of Information Act.

I believe I have been more than patient in waiting for my response.

If no answer is given by the specified date I will be requesting an Internal Review.

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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If your message was a request for information please be advised that your
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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the attention of
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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

Please can you supply the reference number so I can inform the relevant
caseworker of your email.

Regards

show quoted sections

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Data Access & Compliance Unit,

I would love to tell you the reference number of my request. If you would like to give me a reference number for the FOI request, I shall then be able to tell you what it is.
Unfortunately not one of my various replies has contained a reference number.

The entire FOI request can be viewed here:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/fi...

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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If your message was a request for information please be advised that your
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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

As our email dated 30th March informed you your letter has been passed
to general enquiries. I have passed your email to them, and you receive
a response from them shortly.

Regards

show quoted sections

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Ministry of Justice,

Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.

I am writing to request an internal review of Ministry of Justice's handling of my FOI request 'Fixed Penalty Notice'.

I am thoroughly appalled by the way this request has been handled.
I was told that the MoJ felt that my request was not a FOI request and would be handled as a general query.
3 times I asked for a detailed explanation as to why the MoJ believed this to be the case and every time that request has been ignored.
Not only that, apart from Hannah Law, your staff have not identified who they were, what department they are replying from or giving the appropriate contact details.
Also I gathered there was a lack of giving an appropriate reference number to my request. This was proven when one of your staff asked what the reference number was, to which I obviously could not tell them.

As an ex Civil Servant I know how important the Civil Service Code is for guiding staff with their interaction with the public. I'm sure from viewing this request at the link below you will see that the staff have failed numerous points on the Civil Service Code.

Please can my original request please be answered, if not, I believe I would be due an appropriate explanation as to why not.

A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is available on the Internet at this address:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/fi...

Yours faithfully,

Nicholas Taylor

Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

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If your message was a request for information please be advised that your
request is being dealt with and you will receive a written acknowledgement
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Data Access & Compliance Unit

Information Directorate

Ministry of Justice
6th Floor, Zone B, Postal Point 6.23
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Fax: 0203 334 2245

E-mail: [email address]

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general.queries, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

Thank you for your e-mail dated 07 April 2010. The reference number for
your correspondence is "TO270526".

Regards

Grana

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Data Access & Compliance Unit, Ministry of Justice

Internal Review IR/64635/10

Data Access & Compliance Unit
Information Directorate
Zone 6 B
Post point 6.25
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

T 020 3334 5249
F 020 3334 2245
E [email address]

www.justice.gov.uk

14-APR-10 Our Ref:IR/64635/10

Dear Nicholas Taylor,

Thank you for your correspondence of April 8, 2010, in which you asked
for an Internal Review into handling of your request for information.

Your request for an Internal Review is being handled in accordance with
the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and will be passed to the Unit that
will carry out this process.

You will be contacted separately by the person conducting the review but
in the meantime please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any
queries. Please quote Ref: IR/64635/10 in all future correspondence.

Yours sincerely,

James Noble
(Sent on behalf of Hannah Wright)
Data Access and Compliance Unit

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Wright, Hannah, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

It might be helpful if we discuss your request. Would you like to
telephone me on the number below and I will explain why we have not
treated your request as a Freedom of Information request.

Yours sincerely,

Hannah Wright

Hannah Wright
Ministry of Justice | Data Access & Compliance Unit | 0203 334 5249

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Nicholas Taylor

Dear Wright, Hannah,

Ref: IR/64635/10

Thank you for your response and also thank you for your offer to discuss this request by telephone, unfortunately I am declining this offer.

The rationale to my decision has 2 main elements:

1) I would record such telephone communication and then would transcribe the conversation.
Unfortunately I do not have equivalent standard of recording software that a department such as the Ministry of Justice has to do this. This would leave me fearful that going through the 2 processes that the transcript would not be 100% accurate.
With this being a request in pursuant to Laws of this land, that is not a risk I am willing to make.

2) Also as i'm sure you are aware, I have made this FOI request using the whatdotheyknow site. Due to this, others have showed an interest in an outcome of this request.

This leads me to a decision that a written request would be far more appropriate. I feel this would allow me to fully study your reply before articulating a proper lawful response.

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Wright, Hannah, Ministry of Justice

1 Attachment

Dear Mr Taylor,

Please find attached a response to your earlier correspondence with the
Ministry of Justice.

Yours sincerely,

Hannah Wright
Ministry of Justice | Data Access & Compliance Unit | 0203 334 5249

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brian ovens left an annotation ()

Amazing how they wriggle out of things, what happened to all this transparency the government was on about.

Nicholas Taylor

Dear Wright, Hannah,

Thank you for your response and offering an explanation.

Can I ask when and how the Ministerial Correspondence Unit (MCU) will be contacting me regarding the questions I raised?

Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Taylor

Wright, Hannah, Ministry of Justice

Dear Mr Taylor,

I will get in touch with MCU and ask them for an update.

Many thanks,

Hannah

Hannah Wright
Ministry of Justice | Data Access & Compliance Unit | 0203 334 5249

show quoted sections

n.r.b. left an annotation ()

Fixed Penalty Notice

Fixed Penalty Notices, such as those issued by Traffic enforcement officers are in reality a 'self perpetuating contractual payments' unless of course it is discharged though due process.

The ‘Fixed Penalty Notice’ itself is in fact an offer of contract, the ‘Notice’ part is the ‘notification of liability’, the ‘Penalty’ following the fixed is ‘Contractual Payment’ requested.
This is of course Legal language and the meaning depends on the context of use, please see Blacks law definitions below

FIX(ed). To liquidate or render certain. To fasten a liability upon one. To trans¬form a possible or contingent liability into a present and definite liability.

PENALTY. 1. The sum of money which the obligor of a bond undertakes to pay by way of penalty, in the event of his omitting to perform or carry out the terms imposed upon him by the conditions of the bond. Brown.

A penalty is an agreement to pay a greater sum, to secure the payment of a less sum. It is condi-tional, and can be avoided by the payment of the less sum before the contingency agreed upon shall happen. By what name it is called is InunateriaL Minor, (Ala.) 204, 227.

2. A punishment; a punishment imposed by statute as a consequence of the commis¬sion of a certain specified offense.

The terms "fine." "forfeiture," and "penalty" are often used loosely, and even confusedly; but, when a discrimination is made, the word "penalty " Is found to be generic in its character, including both fine and forfeiture. A "line" is a pecuniary penalty, and is commonly (perhaps always) to be collected by suit in some form. A "forfeiture" is a penalty by Which one loses his rights and inter¬est in his property. 4 Iowa, 800.
3. The term also denotes money recoverable by virtue of a statute imposing a payment by way of punishment.

Notice is either (1) statutory, 1. e., made so by legislative enactment; (2) actual, which brings the knowledge of a fact directly home to the party; or (3) constructive or implied, which is no more than evidence of facts which raise such a strong presumption of notice that equity will not
allow the presumption to be rebutted. Constructive notice may be subdivided into: (a) Where there exists actual notice of matter, to which equity has added constructive notice of facts, which an in¬quiry after such matter would have elicited; and (b) where there has been a designed abstinence from inquiry for the very purpose of escaping no¬tice. Wharton.
Notice is actual when it is directly and person¬ally given to the party to be notified; and con-structive when the party, by circumstances, is put upon inquiry, and must be presumed to have had notice, or, by judgment of law, is held to have had notice. 14 Ga. 145.
Every person who has actual notice of circum¬stances sufficient to put, a prudent man upon in¬quiey as to a particular fact has constructive no¬tice of the fact itself in all eases in which, by prosecuting such inquiry, he might have learned such fact. Civil Code Cal. S 19.
Actual notice consists in express information of a fact. Constructive notice is notice imputed by the law to s person not having actual notice; and every person who has actual notice of circum¬stances sufficient to put a prudent man upon in¬quiry as to a particular fact, and who omits to make such inquiry with reasonable diligence, is deemed to have constructive notice of the fact itself. 1 Dalt.. T. 399, 400, 40 N. W. Rep. 1134.
In another sense, "notice" means infor¬mation of an act to be done or required to be done; as of a motion to be made, a trial to be had, a plea or answer to be put in, costs to be taxed, etc.
In this sense. "notice" means an advice, or writ¬ten warning, in more or less formal shape, intend¬ed to apprise a person of some proceeding in which his interests are involved, or informing him of some fact which it is his right to know and the duty of the notifying party to communicate.

NOTICE. Knowledge; information; the result of observation, whether by the senses or the mind; knowledge of the existence of a fact or state of affairs; the means of knowl¬edge. Used in this sense in such phrases as "A. had notice of the conversion," "a pur¬chaser without notice of fraud," etc.

I hope this helps, you could try to get them to deny any of this,.

Good luck

n.r.b. left an annotation ()

Penalty Charge Notice update
I neglected to make the clear distinction between contract and contractual payment, as you know, the requested payment is nested within the Notice.

The PCN itself is the ‘offer of contract’, the requested contractual payment is the penal sum attached to it for settlement, all the offers I have seen so far have been accompanied a reduced price time limited concessionary offer, presumably to encourage speedy settlement, and to distract your attention away that the PCN is none other than an offer of contract .