ETCS signalling and clever traffic management systems,

Paul Thornton made this Freedom of Information request to High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

This request has been closed to new correspondence from the public body. Contact us if you think it ought be re-opened.

The request was partially successful.

Dear High Speed Two (HS2) Limited,

I note the interview with Mr Simon Kirby published in Rail Engineer at this link

https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/29/t...

Mr Kirby is reported as saying that “ETCS signalling, clever traffic management systems, trains which report their own faults to the depots in advance. These are the building blocks of the railway and they will have to be robust. So HS2 doesn’t intend to be the first deployment for any of this technology. Although cutting edge, it must all have been used successfully somewhere else first to reduce risk.”

Please provide the specification(s) for the proposed ETCS signalling and the traffic management system for HS2. Please provide information you hold about the successful use of those systems elsewhere.

Please particularly provide the information you hold about any rail layout arrangement elsewhere in the world where very high speed trains converge from three lines onto one in close proximity to a through station. Please provide the information held about the signalling and traffic management systems for those layouts.

Yours faithfully,

Dr Paul Thornton

HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

Thank you for your email which will be dealt with by a member of the HS2
Helpdesk team who will provide a response as soon as possible*. If your
enquiry is urgent and requires immediate attention please contact the 24
hour HS2 Helpdesk line directly on our Freephone number 08081 434 434.

 

Please note that the HS2 Helpdesk is not able to access  emails from 10pm
until 7am on weekdays and from 5pm until 9am on weekends and bank holidays
so all urgent enquiries should be directed to the 24 hour HS2 Helpdesk
line number as above.

 

*In accordance with our community commitments, we will respond to
questions and complaints quickly and efficiently, with an acknowledgement
within 2 working days, and responding within 20 working days if we cannot
answer the query straight away.

This email is scanned and cleared by Websense. HS2 Ltd is registered in
England and Wales. Registration Number 06791686, Registered office High
Speed Two (HS2) Ltd, 2 Snowhill, Queensway, Birmingham, B4 6GA, England.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be
subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named
above. If you are not named above as a recipient, you must not read, copy,
disclose, forward or otherwise use the information contained in this
email. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
(whose contact details are within the original email) immediately by reply
e-mail and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any
copies.

HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

Dear Dr Thornton

Thank you for your email to HS2 Ltd. We are considering your request under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 and aim to reply as soon as possible and no later than 29 May 2018.

Your reference number for the request is FOI18-2007.

Kind regards,

F Woollard| Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser | HS2 Ltd      
Tel: 08081 434 434 (Freephone number)| [email address]| Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn
High Speed Two (HS2) Limited , Two Snowhill, Snow Hill Queensway, Birmingham, B4 6GA  | www.gov.uk/hs2

From: Paul Thornton [mailto: ]
Sent: 01 May 2018 14:32
To: HS2Enquiries <[email address]>
Subject: Freedom of Information request - ETCS signalling and clever traffic management systems,

Dear High Speed Two (HS2) Limited,

I note the interview with Mr Simon Kirby published in Rail Engineer at this link

https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/29/t...

Mr Kirby is reported as saying that “ETCS signalling, clever traffic management systems, trains which report their own faults to the depots in advance. These are the building blocks of the railway and they will have to be robust. So HS2 doesn’t intend to be the first deployment for any of this technology. Although cutting edge, it must all have been used successfully somewhere else first to reduce risk.”

Please provide the specification(s) for the proposed ETCS signalling and the traffic management system for HS2. Please provide information you hold about the successful use of those systems elsewhere.

Please particularly provide the information you hold about any rail layout arrangement elsewhere in the world where very high speed trains converge from three lines onto one in close proximity to a through station. Please provide the information held about the signalling and traffic management systems for those layouts.

Yours faithfully,

Dr Paul Thornton

-------------------------------------------------------------------

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[FOI #481684 email]

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show quoted sections

F Woollard
Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser
HS2 Ltd

Dear Mr/Ms Woollard

Your ref FOI18-2007

Thank you for your email of the 10th May 2018.

I note that we are now past the date of your intended substantive response and so beyond the maximum period permitted under the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR) for the provision of the information requested. It would be helpful if you would arrange for provision of the requested information to be expedited.

Even if there is a possibility some of the information requested might fall under the terms of one of the EIR exemptions, there is a presumption in the regulations in favour of publication on public interest grounds. There is nothing in this case that might over-ride this presumption. There is no justification for substantially extending the period for a response for consideration of the public interest.

Nonetheless, in the event that HS2 Ltd might be considering withholding some of the information, I would observe that you cannot withhold all the information falling under the terms of the request, even if you claim that some component of that information falls under an exemption. The public interest considerations can only be extended in respect of that component of the information that falls under one of the exemptions. You cannot continue to with hold any component of the requested information where no exemption is engaged. That component of the information must be published immediately.

Particularly, it is impossible to envisage that any exemption might be applicable in respect of the following components of my request:
“Please provide information you hold about the successful use of those systems elsewhere.”

“Please particularly provide the information you hold about any rail layout arrangement elsewhere in the world where very high speed trains converge from three lines onto one in close proximity to a through station. Please provide the information held about the signalling and traffic management systems for those layouts.”

Finally, should you wish claim the engagement of an EIR exemption for some part(s) of the information, please ensure you provide a clear explanation of the nature, scale and format of that/those part(s) and also provide the justification such that a further extended period is required for consideration of the public interest.

Yours sincerely,

Dr Paul Thornton

HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

Thank you for your email which will be dealt with by a member of the HS2
Helpdesk team who will provide a response as soon as possible*. If your
enquiry is urgent and requires immediate attention please contact the 24
hour HS2 Helpdesk line directly on our Freephone number 08081 434 434.

 

Please note that the HS2 Helpdesk is not able to access  emails from 10pm
until 7am on weekdays and from 5pm until 9am on weekends and bank holidays
so all urgent enquiries should be directed to the 24 hour HS2 Helpdesk
line number as above.

 

*In accordance with our community commitments, we will respond to
questions and complaints quickly and efficiently, with an acknowledgement
within 2 working days, and responding within 20 working days if we cannot
answer the query straight away.

This email is scanned and cleared by Websense. HS2 Ltd is registered in
England and Wales. Registration Number 06791686, Registered office
Registered office High Speed Two (HS2) Limited, Two Snowhill, Snow Hill
Queensway, Birmingham, B4 6GA, England. The information contained in this
e-mail is confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. It is
intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above
as a recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise
use the information contained in this email. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are
within the original email) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the
message and any attachments without retaining any copies.

HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

Dear Dr Thornton

 

Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to FOI.

 

Kind regards

 

Simone Wright | Senior Helpdesk Advisor | HS2 Ltd     

Tel: 08081434434 | [email address] | [1]Facebook | [2]Twitter |
[3]LinkedIn

High Speed Two (HS2) Limited, | [4]www.gov.uk/hs2

This email is scanned and cleared by Websense. HS2 Ltd is registered in

England and Wales. Registration Number 06791686, Registered office High

Speed Two (HS2) Ltd, 2 Snowhill, Queensway, Birmingham, B4 6GA,

England. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and

may also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the

recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a recipient,

you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the

information contained in this email. If you have received this e-mail

in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are within

the original email) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message

and any attachments without retaining any copies

 

 

 

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HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

2 Attachments

Dear Dr Thornton

I apologise for the delay in this response to your request. I attach the response.

For future reference, the reference number for your response is FOI18-2007.

Yours sincerely

F Woollard| Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser | HS2 Ltd      
Tel: 08081 434 434 (Freephone number)| [email address]| Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn
High Speed Two (HS2) Limited , Two Snowhill, Snow Hill Queensway, Birmingham, B4 6GA  | www.gov.uk/hs2

From: Paul Thornton [mailto: ]
Sent: 01 May 2018 14:32
To: HS2Enquiries <[email address]>
Subject: Freedom of Information request - ETCS signalling and clever traffic management systems,

Dear High Speed Two (HS2) Limited,

I note the interview with Mr Simon Kirby published in Rail Engineer at this link

https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/29/t...

Mr Kirby is reported as saying that “ETCS signalling, clever traffic management systems, trains which report their own faults to the depots in advance. These are the building blocks of the railway and they will have to be robust. So HS2 doesn’t intend to be the first deployment for any of this technology. Although cutting edge, it must all have been used successfully somewhere else first to reduce risk.”

Please provide the specification(s) for the proposed ETCS signalling and the traffic management system for HS2. Please provide information you hold about the successful use of those systems elsewhere.

Please particularly provide the information you hold about any rail layout arrangement elsewhere in the world where very high speed trains converge from three lines onto one in close proximity to a through station. Please provide the information held about the signalling and traffic management systems for those layouts.

Yours faithfully,

Dr Paul Thornton

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[FOI #481684 email]

Is [High Speed Two request email] the wrong address for Freedom of Information requests to High Speed Two (HS2) Limited? If so, please contact us using this form:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/change_re...

Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/help/offi...

For more detailed guidance on safely disclosing information, read the latest advice from the ICO:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/help/ico-...

Please note that in some cases publication of requests and responses will be delayed.

If you find this service useful as an FOI officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's FOI page.

show quoted sections

Mr F Woollard
Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser
HS2 Ltd

Dear Mr Wollard,

Thank you for your letter of the 4th June 2016 reference FOI18-2007.

I am writing to request an internal review of your decision to withhold some of the requested information.
Consistent with your response, I shall address my comments in respect of each of the components of the request.

1. Please provide the specification(s) for the proposed ETCS signalling and the traffic management system for HS2

While the old information in the links provided is relevant, it is not the information requested in this part of the request.
I am bemused at the claimed engagement of EIR12(5)(e) and the suggestion that “the disclosure of information would undermine HS2 Ltd’s ability to negotiate competitive rates because potential suppliers would adjust their bids accordingly.”

If the tendering process is through secret bids, the information provided should have no impact except that it becomes even more important that all prospective bidders have access to the same information. Against that background, perhaps you could review or clarify your suggestion that “in addition it would reveal information to the market place which could provide an unfair advantage to third parties”? Who are these third parties? Why would additional knowledge enable them to safely inflate their secret competitive bids? To whom has the information been provided already outwith of HS2 Ltd?

Placing this information in the public domain would also better enable potential small and medium sized subcontractors to enter into informed negotiations with main contractors.

You have given insufficient consideration to the redaction of the minor components of the information that might possibly have actual commercial sensitivity.

Finally, the withheld information clearly includes information that relates directly and indirectly to the sound that will be emitted by the railway, and other emissions. This is apparent from the Pre-Qualification Technical Summary that you have provided. As such EIR section 12(9) is engaged and as such EIR 12(5)(e) cannot be engaged.

The public interest factors claimed to support the non-disclosure of this information are otherwise unexplained and unsubstantiated assertions which lack face validity. Also, proper account has not been taken of the presumption in favour of publication on public interest grounds under EIR12(2), even if an exemption can be engaged

2. Please provide information you hold about the successful use of those systems elsewhere.

I note the claimed success of ETCS elsewhere but you have not provided any requested information that you hold that substantiates or quantifies this success.

I appreciate that the volume of such information might be substantial so I would be content to limit that component to the evidence you hold in respect of the existing rail service that most closely approximates to a service of the complexity of the HS2 proposals particularly in respect of the junctions and station around Packington. I am seeking information in respect of maximum speed and maximum capacity where multiple lines merge. The UK examples that you have cited appear to be substantially slower and have far less complex convergence of trains. None the less, any analysis you hold in respect of the success of ETCS in these locations would be helpful. Comparisons that you hold with the demonstrated speed, capacity and track complexity for equivalent tracks in the UK using older signalling methodologies would be helpful.

Your response suggests that while the HS2 ETCS system will comply with the CCS TCI, it will none the less be a different system to those TSI compliant systems already in use elsewhere in the world including in China and elsewhere in the UK. The Prequalification Technical Summary Document no.: HS2-HS2-RR-SPE-00000006 that you have provided in your response was apparently published on the 28th March 2017 but it appears explicit at Section 8 that these systems are still to be developed.

I note that Mr Tom Williamson, Head of Rollling Stock Engineering in his presentation of the 27th March 2017 to suppliers that is accessed off the link you provided describes Automatic Train Operation as a requirement and a “proven technology” but also as a “world first for high speed rail”. This seems to be at variance with the assurances given by Mr Kirby that triggered this enquiry.

The TSI requirements seem to set a minimum standard and it would appear that while the HS2 ETCS is intended to comply with those standards, those requirements might need to be exceeded to secure both the speeds and capacity that were claimed to justify HS2 when completed.

Clearly it is in the public interest that there is clear publication and independent scrutiny that the train control systems required to achieve the speed and capacity claimed for HS2 are proven before the government enters into construction contracts for the line, particularly given the other additional civil engineering construction costs and the substantially diminished capacity on the line that arises from those ultra high speeds.

3. Please particularly provide the information you hold about any rail layout arrangement elsewhere in the world where very high speed trains converge from three lines onto one in close proximity to a through station. Please provide the information held about the signalling and traffic management systems for those layouts.

I note that you do not hold any information falling under this component of the request. It seems appropriate that I ask if you would double check. If, prompted by this enquiry or otherwise, such information has been obtained after my enquiry, please now provide it now.

Yours sincerely,

Dr Paul Thornton

HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

Dear Dr Thornton

 

Thank you for your email and I am sorry that you are unhappy with the
response to your request for information.  I confirm that we will treat
this as a request for an internal review of the response as required under
the Environmental Information Regulations 2004.

 

We will respond to you as soon as possible and within 20 working days and
no later than 4 July 2018.    Your reference number for the internal
review is FOI18-2007R.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

F Woollard| Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser | HS2 Ltd      

Tel: 08081 434 434 (Freephone number)| [1][email address]|
[2]Facebook | [3]Twitter | [4]LinkedIn

High Speed Two (HS2) Limited , Two Snowhill, Snow Hill Queensway,
Birmingham, B4 6GA  | [5]www.gov.uk/hs2

 

 

 

 

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HS2Enquiries, High Speed Two (HS2) Limited

2 Attachments

Dear Dr Thornton,

 

Further to our email below, please see attached our response to your
internal review request.

 

Kind regards,

 

L Marsham | Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser | HS2 Ltd      

Tel: 020 7944 4908| [1][High Speed Two request email] | [2]Facebook | [3]Twitter
| [4]LinkedIn

High Speed Two (HS2) Limited , Two Snowhill, Snow Hill Queensway,
Birmingham, B4 6GA  | [5]www.gov.uk/hs2

 

From: HS2Enquiries
Sent: 07 June 2018 09:56
To: [FOI #481684 email]
Subject: FOI18-2007R - ETCS signalling and clever traffic management
systems

 

Dear Dr Thornton

 

Thank you for your email and I am sorry that you are unhappy with the
response to your request for information.  I confirm that we will treat
this as a request for an internal review of the response as required under
the Environmental Information Regulations 2004.

 

We will respond to you as soon as possible and within 20 working days and
no later than 4 July 2018.    Your reference number for the internal
review is FOI18-2007R.

 

Yours sincerely

 

F Woollard| Briefings, Correspondence and FOI Adviser | HS2 Ltd      

Tel: 08081 434 434 (Freephone number)| [6][email address]|
[7]Facebook | [8]Twitter | [9]LinkedIn

High Speed Two (HS2) Limited , Two Snowhill, Snow Hill Queensway,
Birmingham, B4 6GA  | [10]www.gov.uk/hs2

 

 

 

 

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