Depth of tube stations and tube lines (followup)

The request was partially successful.

Clive D.W. Feather

Dear Transport for London,

On 5th March 2013 you replied to a FOI request by Hamechan Madhoo with the title "Depth of tube stations and tube lines"; the request and your replies can be seen at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/d...

In relation to this request, please provide the following additional information:

(1) The platform depths for the stations on the former East London Line (Shoreditch to New Cross and New Cross gate).
(2) Ground level and platform depth information for:
(a) the remaining stations on the Overground route based on the former East London Line (that is Highbury and Islington to Shoreditch High Street, Brockley to West Croydon and Crystal Palace, and Queens Road Peckham to Clapham Junction);
(b) the stations formerly on the Bakerloo Line (Harrow and Wealdstone to Watford Junction);
(c) the new stations on the Croxley Link;
(d) the various closed Underground stations listed in the annex below (and any others you have easy access to the information about);
(e) the Docklands Light Railway;
(f) Croydon Tramlink.
I appreciate that some of this may require you to request data from, or forward this request to, Network Rail. I also appreciate that (d) may be hard to get and so this should be treated as lower priority.
(3) Those maps showing underground lines: B3, D1, D2, D4, D5, E1, E2, E3, and F3 (plus F2 if Newbury Park station is on page F2).
In general, information should be to the same level of precision (and where possible on the same basis) as in the cited request.

Yours faithfully,

Clive D.W. Feather

Annex: list of closed stations of interest:
Aldgate East (before the move in 1938)
Aldwych
Blake Hall
British Museum
Brompton Road
Bull and Bush
City Road
Down Street
King William Street
King's Cross (closed in 1941)
Lord's
Marlborough Road
North Weald
Ongar
South Kentish Town
St.Mary's (District)
Stockwell (before the move in 1924)
Swiss Cottage (Metropolitan)
Tower Hill (after the move in 1884 and before the move in 1967)
Wood Lane (Central)
York Road

Clive D.W. Feather

Dear Transport for London,

In relation to part 3 of my request, I have since learned that the relevant maps are available via FOI requests 1856-1415 and 1282-1415. Therefore I would like to withdraw this part of my request; the other two parts are unaffected by this.

Yours faithfully,

Clive D.W. Feather

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Feather

 

Our ref:  FOI-0380-1516

 

Thank you for your emails received on 4 and 5 June 2015 asking for
platform depths information.

 

Your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the
Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy.

 

A response will be provided to you by 2 July 2015. We publish a
substantial range of information on our website on subjects including
operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance
and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently
asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check
[1]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar... to see if this helps you.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please
do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Graham Hurt

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

 

 

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References

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1. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar...
2. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

FOI, Transport for London

2 Attachments

Link: [1]File-List
Link: [2]themeData
Link: [3]colorSchemeMapping

Dear Mr Feather

 

Our ref: FOI-0380-1516

 

Thank you for your emails received on 4 and 5 June 2015 asking for
platform depths information.

 

Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of
Information Act 2000 and our information access policy. I can confirm that
we do hold some of the information you require.

 

(1) The platform depths for the stations on the former East London Line
(Shoreditch to New Cross and New Cross gate).

(2) Ground level and platform depth information for:

(a) the remaining stations on the Overground route based on the former
East London Line (that is Highbury and Islington to Shoreditch High
Street, Brockley to West Croydon and Crystal Palace, and Queens Road
Peckham to Clapham Junction);

(b) the stations formerly on the Bakerloo Line (Harrow and Wealdstone to
Watford Junction);

(c) the new stations on the Croxley Link;

 

London Overground do not record this information

 

(d) the various closed Underground stations listed in the annex below (and
any others you have easy access to the information about);

Annex: list of closed stations of interest: (Approx depths)

Aldgate East (before the move in 1938) 8m

Aldwych 28m

Blake Hall At street level

British Museum Conflicting data. Believed to be about 80 feet

Brompton Road 72 feet

Bull and Bush Conflicting data. Believed to be about 100 feet.

City Road 70 feet

Down Street 73 feet

King William Street Information not held

King's Cross (closed in 1941) Information not held

Lord's Information not held

Marlborough Road Information not held

North Weald At street level

Ongar At street level

South Kentish Town 61 feet

St.Mary's (District) Information not held

Stockwell (before the move in 1924) No levels given on only drawing found
of original station

Swiss Cottage (Metropolitan) Information not held

Tower Hill (after the move in 1884 and before the move in 1967)
Information not held

Wood Lane (Central) No details of levels found for either Central or
previous H&C stations.

York Road 90 feet

 

(e) the Docklands Light Railway;

 

Please see the attached spreadsheet ‘DLR’

 

(f) Croydon Tramlink.

 

All platforms are at street level.

 

If this is not the information you are looking for, or if you are unable
to access it for some reason, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

If you are not satisfied with this response please see the attached
information sheet for details of your right to appeal.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Graham Hurt

 

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

 

 

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Clive D.W. Feather

Dear Mr Hurt,

Thank you for your reply.

In relation to item (1), I understood that the former East London Line was still owned and maintained by TfL. Therefore I would expect you to possess engineering drawings holding this information. This would also apply at least to the section of the line from Whitechapel to Dalston Junction.

In relation to item (2)(c), I again understood that this was a TfL project and therefore you should hold the data.

In relation to items (2)(a) and (2)(b), please indicate who you would expect to hold this data.

In relation to item (2)(d), your cited previous response (your reference 1700-1213) gave depths to a precision of 0.1m relative to London Underground Datum. Please provide these depths on this basis rather than whatever you have used (which is not made clear in your reply). Please also explain why you are unable to provide at least some of the missing items (e.g. I would expect Bull and Bush or Marlborough Road to appear on current engineering drawings).

I am happy with the answer to item (2)(e). I would be interested to know what the meaning of the "LCS" column is.

In relation to item (2)(f), I am again looking for heights relative to London Underground Datum or Ordnance Datum Newlyn. Your answer is insufficient; I would again expect you to hold engineering drawings with this data.

Thank you for the information you have provided and I hope to hear from you soon.

Yours sincerely,

Clive D.W. Feather

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Feather

 

Request for Internal Review

 

Our ref: IRV-028-1516

 

Thank you for your request for an internal review which was received by
Transport for London (TfL) on 7 July 2015.  Please accept my apologies for
the delay in responding.

 

You have stated that you are dissatisfied with the handling of your
request for information under the Freedom of Information Act.

 

The review will be conducted by an internal review panel in accordance
with TfL’s Internal Review Procedure, which is available via the following
URL:

[1]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/doc...

 

Every effort will be made to provide you with a response by 14 August
2015. However, if the review will not be completed by this date, we will
contact you and notify you of the revised response date as soon as
possible.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please
do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Emma Flint

Information Access Adviser

Transport for London

[2][TfL request email]

 

 

 

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References

Visible links
1. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/doc...
2. mailto:[TfL request email]
3. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Mr Feather

 

I am contacting you regarding your internal review request of 7 July
2015.  Unfortunately we have not been able to provide a full response by
the 14 August as advised.  The information you seek it located across many
different business areas and it is taking longer than anticipated to
retrieve and correlate responses from key individuals.

 

Please accept my apologies for the delay but please be assured that we are
endeavouring to provide you with a full response as soon as possible.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Emma Flint

Information Access Adviser

Transport for London

[1][TfL request email]

 

From: FOI
Sent: 23 July 2015 12:06
To: '[FOI #271990 email]'
Subject: IRV-028-1516

 

Dear Mr Feather

 

Request for Internal Review

 

Our ref: IRV-028-1516

 

Thank you for your request for an internal review which was received by
Transport for London (TfL) on 7 July 2015. Please accept my apologies for
the delay in responding.

 

You have stated that you are dissatisfied with the handling of your
request for information under the Freedom of Information Act.

 

The review will be conducted by an internal review panel in accordance
with TfL’s Internal Review Procedure, which is available via the following
URL:

[2]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/doc...

 

Every effort will be made to provide you with a response by 14 August
2015. However, if the review will not be completed by this date, we will
contact you and notify you of the revised response date as soon as
possible.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please
do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Emma Flint

Information Access Adviser

Transport for London

[3][TfL request email]

 

 

 

show quoted sections

 

References

Visible links
1. mailto:[TfL request email]
2. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/doc...
3. mailto:[TfL request email]
4. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

FOI, Transport for London

38 Attachments

Dear Mr Feather

 

IRV-028-1516

 

I am contacting you regarding the internal review of your request for
information concerning platform depths. Please accept my apologies for the
delay in responding.

 

This review has been carried out by an independent panel following your
email of 7 July 2015 regarding the handling of your Freedom of Information
request.

 

The panel has reviewed all the information held in relation to your
original request (FOI-0380-1516) and liaised with teams in London
Underground, London Overground, DLR and Croydon Tramlink.

 

For ease of reference I will address each of your points separately below:

 

In relation to item (1), I understood that the former East London Line was
still owned and maintained by TfL. Therefore I would expect you to possess
engineering drawings holding this information. This would also apply at
least to the section of the line from Whitechapel to Dalston Junction.

 

Unfortunately the panel have been unable to confirm whether the
information you describe above is held.

 

In relation to item (2)(c), I again understood that this was a TfL project
and therefore you should hold the data

 

You are correct that TfL are involved in this project but at this early
stage in the process we do not yet hold the data you are looking for.

 

In relation to items (2)(a) and (2)(b), please indicate who you would
expect to hold this data.

 

We believe National Rail will hold this information. They can be contact
using the following link: [1]FOI - Network Rail

 

In relation to item (2)(d), your cited previous response (your reference
1700-1213) gave depths to a precision of 0.1m relative to London
Underground Datum. Please provide these depths on this basis rather than
whatever you have used (which is not made clear in your reply). Please
also explain why you are unable to provide at least some of the missing
items (e.g. I would expect Bull and Bush or Marlborough Road to appear on
current engineering drawings).

 

The response you are referring to above (FOI-1700-1213) was information in
relation to open and operational stations and for all existing operational
stations we hold relatively accurate survey data. With regards to the
closed stations, to provide the information you have requested we need to
revert to record drawings, many of which are archived and some of the
information has to be sourced from more than one drawing. Unfortunately we
are unable to guarantee the complete accuracy of the information contained
on these drawings due to their age. Additionally these drawings were
created with a mix of imperial and metric units, sometimes to Liverpool
Datum, sometimes to Newlyn Datum, sometimes to London Underground imperial
tunnel datum and sometimes to metric tunnel datum. There is also the issue
that street levels today may be different from when the station was
operational.

 

Therefore the panel agree that you have been provided with the data we
hold in relation to your request and we are unable to provide it in the
format your are requesting.

 

Below you will find depth data in relation to the remaining stations on
your original list.  Again due to constraints on the drawings held this is
the most accurate information we are able to provide. 

 

Annex: list of remaining closed stations of interest:

 

King William Street – approx. 55 feet

King's Cross (closed in 1941) - approx. 22 feet

Lord's – approx. 6m

Marlborough Road- approx. 6m

St. Mary’s (District)- approx. 20 feet

Swiss Cottage (Metropolitan) - approx. 22 feet

Tower Hill (after the move in 1884 and before the move in 1967) - approx.
20 feet

 

The panel also noted that in order to provide you with the approximate
depths for all the stations you listed has taken a significant amount of
searching and collating by a member of staff, as many archived drawings
had to be located and manually searched to source the data.  Under section
12 of the FOI Act, we are not obliged to comply with a request if we
estimate that the cost of determining whether we hold the information,
locating and retrieving it and extracting it from other information would
exceed the appropriate limit of £450 set by the Freedom of Information
(Appropriate Limit and Fees) Regulations 2004. This is calculated at £25
per hour for every hour spent on the activities described

 

Whilst we have not engaged section 12 at this point, the panel agree that
any further work undertaken on this would exceed the appropriate limit as
described above and the outlined exemption would be taken into
consideration in accordance with regulation 5 of the Appropriate Limit and
Fees Regulations 2004 if any further requests relating to the above are
received within the next 60 working days .

 

I am happy with the answer to item (2)(e). I would be interested to know
what the meaning of the "LCS" column is.

 

LCS is the Location Code System used by London Underground. It simply
enables the station/plant/track to be located either at a location or
between two locations. It does not refer in any way to ordnance survey
maps but is simply internal to London Underground.

 

In relation to item (2)(f), I am again looking for heights relative to
London Underground Datum or Ordnance Datum Newlyn. Your answer is
insufficient; I would again expect you to hold engineering drawings with
this data.

 

We do not hold the exact information you have requested, however we do
hold the track alignment drawings (please see attached) The platform
heights will be 0.315m higher than the track level.

 

If you are dissatisfied with the internal review actions to date you can
refer the matter to the independent authority responsible for enforcing
the Freedom of Information Act, at the following address:

 

Information Commissioner’s Office

Wycliffe House

Water Lane

Wilmslow

Cheshire SK9 5AF

 

A complaint form is also available on the ICO’s website
([2]www.ico.org.uk).

 

Yours sincerely

 

Emma Flint

Information Access Adviser

Transport for London

[3][TfL request email]

 

 

 

 

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References

Visible links
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2. http://www.ico.org.uk/
3. mailto:[TfL request email]
4. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

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