Dear Sir or Madam,

I would like some information regarding the sale of council houses, as you are aware back in the 1980s clackmannanshire council sold off hundreds of houses. can you tell me where this money went? and where can i find proof of your accounts on any house being sold by clackmannanshire council then or now. i would also like to know if you received the money in full from the building societies? or was it payed up? what i mean by that is, if a house was sold by clackmannanshire council for say 20 thousand pounds, did clackmannanshire council receive the 20 thousand pounds from the building society? i hope that is clear.also, is clackmannanshire council a trading company? and what is it legal name terms, like corporation, body corporation etc?

Yours faithfully,

brian ovens

Adminservices, Clackmannanshire Council

Mr Ovens,
I can confirm receipt of your enquiry dated 22nd July.

My view is that this request does not meet the test for identifying a
formal freedom of information request in that it is not asking for
specific information that the Council holds. Rather, it is asking for
views/comments/statements/assistance. I am nevertheless keen to ensure
that you receive a timely response to your contact with the Council,
albeit, not in the formal terms of a request under FOI(S)A. I trust that
will be appreciated.

Clackmannanshire Council responded positively to the rights tenants were
given in relation to the purchase of their homes, and as you say, many
properties passed from Council to private ownership over the years. It is
my understanding that the 'income' from the sales was added to the Housing
Revenue Account.

Should you wish to track the sale price of any individual property, I
would suggest that the information is easily accessible. Individuals can
make use of on-line services (by using one of the number of search sites
that specialise in reporting the sale price of any property in the
country) or by conducting a search via the Sasine Register or the Land
Register. If you wish to look at the Council's accounts, these are also
published documents.

As the seller of property, the Council will not have received any money
from a Building Society or bank in the way suggested. The Council would
receive the money due from the person buying their house, usually through
their solicitor. It would be the purchaser who would arrange to source
the funds (usually, I guess) from a bank or Building Society. The Council
would expect receipt of the full amount due before completing the
transaction.

Finally, Clackmannanshire Council is a local authority constituted under
the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994. It is not a trading
company.

I trust this response is of assistance.

brian ovens
<[FOI #15023 email]> To: FOI
requests at Clackmannanshire
22/07/2009 21:22 Council
<[email address]>
cc:
Subject:
Freedom of Information
request - council houses

Dear Sir or Madam,
I would like some information regarding the sale of council houses,
as you are aware back in the 1980s clackmannanshire council sold
off hundreds of houses. can you tell me where this money went? and
where can i find proof of your accounts on any house being sold by
clackmannanshire council then or now. i would also like to know if
you received the money in full from the building societies? or was
it payed up? what i mean by that is, if a house was sold by
clackmannanshire council for say 20 thousand pounds, did
clackmannanshire council receive the 20 thousand pounds from the
building society? i hope that is clear.also, is clackmannanshire
council a trading company? and what is it legal name terms, like
corporation, body corporation etc?

Yours faithfully,
brian ovens

show quoted sections

Dear Adminservices,

Thank you for your reply, but can you clear a few things up? you said clackmannanshire council is not a trading company yet you were selling houses for profit, to me that is trading.you are also saying the houses were passed from council to owners, again can you clear this up? im saying they were sold and you are saying they were passed, am i to believe this is the same thing? so maybe you can tell me how many houses were sold by the council between 1979 and 1989, and how much did the council receive in total for the sale of these houses? you also stated the clackmannanshire council is a local authority constituted under the local government etc (scotland)act 1994, but these houses were sold long before that act was passed.can you clear this up also?

Yours sincerely,

brian ovens

Adminservices, Clackmannanshire Council

Mr Ovens, please accept my apologies if you found my response to you to be
confusing. I do hope the undernoted response to your latest points helps
clear things up for you:

Thank you for your reply, but can you clear a few things up? you
said clackmannanshire council is not a trading company yet you were
selling houses for profit, to me that is trading.
'selling houses for a profit' - I'm afraid that is not correct. The
Council was required to comply with the legislation which gave tenants the
right to purchase their homes, with varying discounts applying. It was/is
the tenant that is responsibility for approaching the Council with a
request. That is not quite the same as trading or selling property on the
open market to the highest bidder.

you are also saying the houses were passed from council to owners, again
can you
clear this up? im saying they were sold and you are saying they
were passed, am i to believe this is the same thing?

I do apologise for any confusion I have caused here. I used the term
'passed' to indicate that ownership moved from the Council to the house
occupier. In the rest of my response to you I had indicated that the
change of ownership was indeed as a result of a financial transaction. So
I can agree with your definition in that properties were sold.

so maybe you can tell me how many houses were sold by the council between
1979 and 1989, and how much did the council receive in total for the
sale of these houses?

I am unfortunately not able to answer you on that part - information to
that level of detail is not available. (Records no longer held).
However, I am advised that within Clackmannanshire around 4,500 former
Council owned residences are now privately owned.

you also stated the clackmannanshire council is a local authority
constituted under the local government etc (scotland)act 1994, but these
houses were sold long before that act was passed.can you clear this up
also?

Immediately prior to 1996, there were two tiers of local government
covering this area - Central Regional Council and Clackmannan District
Council. The District Council was the 'housing authority' for the area
and had responsibilities and obligations which would have included
managing the right-to-buy requests from tenants (which began I think in
1980?). The 1994 Act created Clackmannanshire Council and, in the main,
the new authority inherited most of the responsibilities and obligations
of its predecessors.

Again, apologies for any confusion, and I hope this response has clarified
things for you.

brian ovens
<[FOI #15023 email]> To:
Adminservices
23/07/2009 17:01 <[email address]>
cc:
Subject: Re:
Freedom of Information
request - council houses

Dear Adminservices,
Thank you for your reply, but can you clear a few things up? you
said clackmannanshire council is not a trading company yet you were
selling houses for profit, to me that is trading.you are also
saying the houses were passed from council to owners, again can you
clear this up? im saying they were sold and you are saying they
were passed, am i to believe this is the same thing? so maybe you
can tell me how many houses were sold by the council between 1979
and 1989, and how much did the council receive in total for the
sale of these houses? you also stated the clackmannanshire council
is a local authority constituted under the local government etc
(scotland)act 1994, but these houses were sold long before that act
was passed.can you clear this up also?

Yours sincerely,
brian ovens

show quoted sections

Dear Adminservices,

thanks again for your reply and on clearing some things up. as i have said before, i believe if someone is selling or buying something, they are trading. is clackmannanshire council a legal fiction? you said the council was "required to comply with legislation which gave tenants the right to purchase their homes with varying types of discounts applying", can you explain who gave you this legislation?

you do agree with my "definition" that properties were sold, so surely this must mean you agree with me that clackmannanshire council are trading?

i asked where the money from the sale from these houses went to and you said "records no longer held". i could not believe that answer, you are telling me there is no record of these houses being sold off? and no record where the money from these houses went? clackmannanshire council inherited most of the obligations and responsibilities, yet not the records of millions of pounds.

i bought my house from the council and i am still paying it up. are you also telling me there is no record of that? the building society have a record of it and so should I (at least i hope we do) yet the council has nothing. what would be the reason for not keeping records? i will now be asking my building society for proof of mortgage.

i hope you can answer the above questions before i contact them.

thanks for your help

Yours sincerely,

brian ovens

Adminservices, Clackmannanshire Council

Mr. Ovens,
Our dialogue on this topic is becoming something of a saga we could deal
with more productively perhaps. I would be quite happy to meet with you
or call you to cover any remaining points you may have if that would
assist.

In the meantime, I've responded to your latest concerns below as best I
can:

Dear Adminservices,
thanks again for your reply and on clearing some things up. as i
have said before, i believe if someone is selling or buying
something, they are trading. is clackmannanshire council a legal
fiction?
I have explained clearly the legal basis for the Council's existance -
there is nothing I can add to that.

you said the council was "required to comply with
legislation which gave tenants the right to purchase their homes
with varying types of discounts applying", can you explain who gave
you this legislation?

All legislation is published. I am not an expert in the 'right to buy'
legislation, but as a suggestion you may wish to start your research by
looking at the Housing Act 1980 or the The Tenants' Rights, Etc.
(Scotland) Act 1980

you do agree with my "definition" that properties were sold, so
surely this must mean you agree with me that clackmannanshire
council are trading?

Is it not the case that 'trading' implies a form of buying and selling?
In the specific case under discussion the Council has been complying with
the law and facilitating the purchase of homes by the tenents.

i asked where the money from the sale from these houses went to and
you said "records no longer held". i could not believe that answer,
you are telling me there is no record of these houses being sold
off? and no record where the money from these houses went?
clackmannanshire council inherited most of the obligations and
responsibilities, yet not the records of millions of pounds.

All records have, as I'm sure you will appreciate, a limited lifespan of
usefullness. The records for the period you asked about pre-date the
existance of Clackmannanshire Council, and to years where the accounts
have been closed long ago. As I explained, receips from the sale of homes
would have been added to the Housing Revenue accounts. All annual
accounts for the Council are published documents.

i bought my house from the council and i am still paying it up. are
you also telling me there is no record of that? the building
society have a record of it and so should I (at least i hope we do)
yet the council has nothing. what would be the reason for not
keeping records? i will now be asking my building society for proof
of mortgage.

Mr, Ovens, your relationship with your lender in respect of your
mortgagage is, with respect, not the Council's concern. Hence we will hold
no records on that. As explained previously, the Council would have
received the receipt for your home (the full amount) from your solicitor
acting in the capacity of your agent.

As indicated, it may be that quick call would more speedily deal with your
on-going concerns. If you are willing to let me have your number, I will
call at a convenient time.

i hope you can answer the above questions before i contact them.
thanks for your help
Yours sincerely,
brian ovens

brian ovens
<[FOI #15023 email]> To:
Adminservices
24/07/2009 21:06 <[email address]>
cc:
Subject: Re:
Freedom of Information
request - council houses

Dear Adminservices,
thanks again for your reply and on clearing some things up. as i
have said before, i believe if someone is selling or buying
something, they are trading. is clackmannanshire council a legal
fiction? you said the council was "required to comply with
legislation which gave tenants the right to purchase their homes
with varying types of discounts applying", can you explain who gave
you this legislation?

you do agree with my "definition" that properties were sold, so
surely this must mean you agree with me that clackmannanshire
council are trading?

i asked where the money from the sale from these houses went to and
you said "records no longer held". i could not believe that answer,
you are telling me there is no record of these houses being sold
off? and no record where the money from these houses went?
clackmannanshire council inherited most of the obligations and
responsibilities, yet not the records of millions of pounds.

i bought my house from the council and i am still paying it up. are
you also telling me there is no record of that? the building
society have a record of it and so should I (at least i hope we do)
yet the council has nothing. what would be the reason for not
keeping records? i will now be asking my building society for proof
of mortgage.

i hope you can answer the above questions before i contact them.
thanks for your help
Yours sincerely,
brian ovens

show quoted sections

Dear Adminservices,

thanks again for the reply, a little disappointed that you find it is becoming a bit of a saga, as the questions i have asked seem fair and straight forward.

i don't like to give my number out over the net, but i would gladly take yours and give you a call.

in the meantime, can you tell me how many council houses in clackmannanshire have been sold since 1999 to the present day? i cant seem to find anything on the sale of any houses but am sure there must have been some.am still a little confused over clackmannanshire councils legal status, is it a legal fiction? is it a body corporate etc?

Yours sincerely,

Brian ovens

Dear Sir or Madam,

i am still waiting on a reply to my latest request, can you help? thanks

Yours faithfully,

brian ovens

Adminservices, Clackmannanshire Council

Mr. Ovens,

You have stated that you are still waiting on a response from
Clackmannanshire Council in relation to your 'latest request' for
information - it is not entirely clear what you are referring to.

According to our file, your latest request for access to information held
by Clackmannanshire Council relates to a court case.

You submitted a request relating to Council houses in August, and a reply
was sent to you on August 19th (copy below). You were sent a letter in
relation to the other points that you raised at that time.

If you still believe that a response to you is overdue, please let us have
sufficient information to identify and respond to your particular request.

brian ovens
<[FOI #15023 email]> To: FOI
requests at Clackmannanshire
05/10/2009 19:51 Council
<[email address]>
cc:
Subject: Re:
Freedom of Information
request - council houses

Dear Sir or Madam,
i am still waiting on a reply to my latest request, can you help?
thanks

Yours faithfully,
brian ovens

show quoted sections

Dear Adminservices,

my latest request about the court case wasnt mentioned in this thread but in another, please just answer the questions i have asked above on this thread. its pretty clear if you look at what is in this thread, i hope this helps you answer my questions.

Yours sincerely,

brian ovens

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