Changes to speed signage on A406

Chris lawrence made this Freedom of Information request to Transport for London

This request has been closed to new correspondence from the public body. Contact us if you think it ought be re-opened.

The request was partially successful.

Dear Transport for London,
I refer to your reply to Mr Murray FOI-1117-1516 (found on Google). On 19 October 2015 you state "We are aware that the current signage is not clear" on Gunnersbury Avenue and "we understand the police are currently not enforcing the 30mph speed limit" (introduced according to the same letter 2 June 2014). Has the signage changed since that date and since when have the police been enforcing the 30mph limit?

Yours faithfully,

Professor Christopher Lawrence

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Professor Lawrence

 

Our ref:  FOI-0555-1617

 

Thank you for your email received on 7 June 2016 asking for information
about the speed signage on A406.

 

Your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the
Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy.

 

A response will be provided to you by 5 July 2016. We publish a
substantial range of information on our website on subjects including
operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance
and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently
asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check
[1]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar... to see if this helps you.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please
do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Graham Hurt

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

show quoted sections

 

References

Visible links
1. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpar...
2. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

Jeff Smith left an annotation ()

Dear Chris,
I shall be watching this with great interest. I have used this section of the A406 for years. it was always 40mph. Recently whilst travelling northbound I was "caught" by the speed camera outside the International school of London. I was snapped at 36mph. What I object to is that the limit was reduced without any attempt to inform the public. For example they could have used temporary variable message signs (as they did recently on the A316), they could have used yellow backgrounds to the new 30mph signs north bound at Larch drive and they could have erected temporary sign plates indicating either a revised road layout or speed limit reduction. Regards Jeff

Chris lawrence left an annotation ()

Jeff - thanks for your annotation ---I was "caught" on the morning of May 24 -- doing 37 -- and had exactly the same interpretation as you -- as was a friend of mine -- are there any more out there? Chris Lawrence

Richard Weller left an annotation ()

Hi Chris and Jeff,

I was also 'caught' on the 24th May doing 39mph.
I will be following this thread with great interest.
This needs sorting out.

Richard

James left an annotation ()

Hey all,

I've also used this road for many years and was caught twice in a week in June doing 35 and 36 respectively. Talk about about the shock of my life!! I had to return to return in the evening I had the first ticket just to confirm that fact. Couldn't see any clear signs that it was indeed 30mph. A week after receiving the NIP proper signs had been erected and 40mph ones removed from right in front of the camera. I just can't believe to this moment that they can do such things without warning!!

Awaiting this with anticipation.

Many thanks,

James

Dear FOI,
I received this from Whatdotheyknow
"Transport for London have delayed.

They have not replied to your FOI request Changes to speed signage on A406 promptly, as normally required by law."

Yours sincerely,

Chris Lawrence

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Professor Lawrence

 

Thank you for your e-mail. I understand that a response has now been sent
to you. If you would still like to request an Interview Review of the
handling of your request please let me know.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Gemma Jacob

Information Access Advisor

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

[1][TfL request email]

 

 

 

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Dear FOI,
I'm afraid you are misinformed. I received this but am not aware of any response by email, a post on this site or anything or anywhere else.
"6 July 2016

Dear Professor Lawrence

Thank you for your e-mail. I understand that a response has now been sent
to you. If you would still like to request an Interview Review of the
handling of your request please let me know.

Yours sincerely

Gemma Jacob"

Yours sincerely,

Chris lawrence

Peter Farr left an annotation ()

Hi All

I was 'caught' on the 25th June 36 mph, having used this route both as part of a daily a commute for around 4 years and having lived in Brentford for 16 years and that part of the A406 has always been 40mph.
I likewise will watch the thread with interest to see how this develops as there is no additional signage to indicate the change other than the speed limit signs and no usage of the temporary warning signs which are regularly used to indicate central London events and could easily have been deployed to advise road users of the change

Pete Farr

FOI, Transport for London

1 Attachment

Dear Professor Lawrence

 

Our ref: FOI-0555-1617

 

Thank you for your email received on 7 June 2016 asking for information
about the speed signage on A406. I am sorry for the delay in replying.

 

Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of
Information Act 2000 and our information access policy. I can confirm that
we do hold the information you require.

 

Alterations to the speed signage have been made post 19 November 2015
following a review by the Metropolitan Police. These changes were
implemented around the 15 March 2016.

 

There has been a temporary restriction in place on the A406 Gunnersbury
Avenue, north of Chiswick roundabout, for over a year since May 2015
whereby the speed limit reduced from 40 to 30 MPH in order to improve
safety around the construction site currently replacing the bridge over
the railway.

 

All the signage currently on site has been checked and confirmed to be in
accordance with the traffic signs regulations by the Metropolitan Police.
The speed camera was adjusted to the new speed limit around two months
ago.

 

If this is not the information you are looking for please do not hesitate
to contact me.

 

If you are not satisfied with this response please see the attached
information sheet for details of your right to appeal.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Graham Hurt

 

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

show quoted sections

 

References

Visible links
1. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Professor Lawrence

 

I apologise for my earlier error, I thought a reply had gone out to you
but we were still reviewing the response. I have confirmed that a response
has now been sent, if you would still like to request an Interview Review
of the handling of your request please let me know.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Gemma Jacob

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London

 

[1][TfL request email]

 

 

 

 

 

show quoted sections

Richard Weller left an annotation ()

If the signage is SO clear and correct, why have the now painted 3 massive 30Mph speed limit reminders on the road approaching the speed camera?

James left an annotation ()

They're just fobbing us off because they know the signs were not in accordance for the last few months. When I got my speeding tickets I had to go back to confirm there were signs of the road being 30mph.

Chris lawrence left an annotation ()

Thanks for all your help -- we now seem to have moved into an American plea bargaining world -- I've been offered a speeding awareness course -- which gives me no opportunity to state my case with the trade-off of no points on my licence - it's considered an admission of guilt -- what say you - Chris

Jeff Smith left an annotation ()

Dear Chris & interested parties,
Firstly you may have noticed my request "Awareness campaign - speed camera on Gunnersbury Avenue and TfL response.

I'll keep this as short as possible:
You will note that TfL have avoided responding to c) erecting temporary sign plates.
Specifically this was a diagram 7032.
I consider that TfL should have erected that sign but chose not to.
Diagram 7032 is specifically to indicate "Commencement point of a newly imposed 30 miles per hour speed limit which is contiguous to an existing 30 miles per hour speed limit. (TSRGD)
Also Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual states:
EXTENDING THE LENGTH OF AN EXISTING 30 MPH SPEED LIMIT
14.33 ........Should an order be made to extend the 30 mph limit into this adjacent length of road, the terminal signs will be moved to the new speed limit changeover point and the repeater signs removed entirely.
Regular drivers might not at first realise that the speed limit has changed; they might not notice that
the speed limit signs have been removed. A sign to diagram 7032 should therefore be erected to advise
drivers that a new 30 mph speed limit is in force.

Also TfL state "While the existing signage meets the specified standards, we agree that it would be helpful to improve and clarify it.As such, we will be adding extra 30mph signs on the carriageway itself and additional 30mph and speed camera metal plate signs at more visible locations. We are planning for all this work to be completed by 15 July 2016."

On that date 3 pairs of extremely visible diagram 1065 30MPH roundels appeared on the road.
Well I too have the invite to the naughty boys course but I am bristling and am inclined to see them in court.
Let me know if you want my contact details.
Jeff

James left an annotation ()

Lots of you are lucky to have had just the one ticket. All this has left me with a speeding awareness course and and impending 3 points / & a fine. I was caught twice doing 35 & 36 mph respectively. Considering I thought it was still 40mph I was doing pretty well.

Anyway, if there's anything that can be done whether it's going to court or anything I'm up for it. I don't believe tickets should have been issued prior proper signage being put up as it is right now.

James left an annotation ()

"All the signage currently on site has been checked and confirmed to be in
accordance with the traffic signs regulations by the Metropolitan Police.
The speed camera was adjusted to the new speed limit around two months
ago."

Can we have clarification as to what date the signage was checked and confirmed to be in accordance with the traffic signs regulations?

Dear FOI,
Can we have clarification as to what date the signage was checked and confirmed to be in accordance with the traffic signs regulations?

Yours sincerely,

Chris lawrence

FOI, Transport for London

Dear Professor Lawrence

The police confirmed all ok on the 01/03/16 all bar a couple of sign lights with blown bulbs. These were replaced by 16/03/16 and the camera was switched on 31/03/16.

Kind regards

Graham Hurt

show quoted sections

Richard Weller left an annotation ()

That's great, but what about the people who have already been a victim of their 'less than clear' signage?
I'm tempted to roll the dice and go to court.

Richard Weller left an annotation ()

Has anybody successfully challenged a fixed penalty issued from this camera?

Chris lawrence left an annotation ()

I'm sorry I gave in to the American take a deal system-- Chris

TAG left an annotation ()

I have just been fined £100 and 3 license points for speeding (was doing 43 on a road I thought was 40, agreed still over the speed not as much had it been 40)
I always thought it was 40mph road. This happened on 10th July 16 when i was going for a charity Run in London :(
feel gutted and wondering if there is anything that can be done to avoid the points.
Help will be much appreciated.

Peter left an annotation ()

Arrived home yesterday to find that I was done for 36mph in a 30mph area at 10:30pm on 22 August (clear road, dry, warm conditions etc.). When I looked to see where this had happened my immediate reaction, in common with all the other posters on here, was 'but the limit there is 40mph' so from thinking that I had been careless at not having the speed limiter on my car set to 30mph, I realise that I probably now had it set to 10mph over the limit.

I will go and have a look at the current signage there before responding but a friend of mine advises to plead not guilty and appear in court myself with lots of photographic evidence and probably selected parts of the information from this and other sites which provides clear evidence that changes have been made without proper process.

Does anyone: (a) know what penalty I would be hit with if I do this and am found guilty - would the fine and/or points be significantly greater? or (b) have a view on whether such an approach has even the remotest prospect of success?

raj left an annotation ()

I am taking this to court. As the Evening Standard article states, several people have been cleared in Court (Lavender Hill) due to 'confusing signage' - the lady in one example got flashed in May 2016 - same as myself.
I've spoken to a solicitor whom defended someone else at the same A406 camera - they were cleared too!
I am sending this newspaper link with a covering letter to CPS. Hopefully they will drop the case!

Chris lawrence left an annotation ()

congratulations to those of you who had the necessaries to fight on - especially Katy whose name I was delighted to see in the Standard article & who wrote to me and to whom I may have seemed somewhat disheartening

raj left an annotation ()

I went passed a couple of times today Friday 24th March 2017 to take photos (via my passenger I hasten to add!) & saw that a camera warning sign is about 50 metres before the actual camera. Its a red circle on a white background. To my surprise & shock it states 40MPH!!

This blows a lot of the cases out (In my instance I was doing 36 MPH) & unless this is a fake sign, then the Courts have nothing to stand on. There was another sign with a speed limit, but someone has folded it so the MPH figure is now unreadable!

Good luck anyone taking this to Court!

Peter left an annotation ()

Just seen the latest additions and the ES article. I add my congratulations and admiration to those that pursued this all the way. I originally posted in Sept 2016 after being caught on 22 Aug. I attended a speeding awareness course in Ealing where about one-third of the attendees were there because of this camera, perhaps we should organise a mass social gathering of victims! More seriously though, does anyone know whether TfL will reverse penalties for those caught in the period before the signage was changed? The ES article says that the signage change was on 15 July 2016, so given that I was caught after that, I guess that I would not be a beneficiary of any such action. Information and views welcome - thanks.

TAG left an annotation ()

Chris, just so i am clear, does that mean that the sign was updated on 15th july, any suposed offences will not be valid. If so what if the fine is paid and points already on yhe license? I had appealed the fine? Any help will be great!

Chris lawrence left an annotation ()

Tag - You're on your own on this one I'm afraid -- I have no more info than what's here and I'm equally puzzled -- any other contributors have a thought? Chris