CC-BY-SA

Llywelyn made this Freedom of Information request to Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales

The request was partially successful.

From: Llywelyn

Dear Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of
Wales,

Can you give me a list please of all images and other files we can
use on Wikipedia / Wicipedia Cymraeg. These files would need to be
licenced as CC-BY-SA.

Yours faithfully,

Llywelyn

Link to this

From: Llywelyn

Dear Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of
Wales,

Can I extend the license to include any Open Government Licenced
and any out-of-copyright files you have, please. In short: a lsit
of all files we can upload to Wikipedia.

Yours faithfully,

Llywelyn

Link to this

From: Gareth Edwards
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales

Dear Llywelyn,

 

Thank you for your request for information regarding the use, on
Wikipedia, of image and other files held by us. Whilst we certainly
welcome moves to make our records more widely available to public users,
we are not able to allow use of our records on Wikipedia under the CC
BY-SA license. This version of the Creative Commons license allows for
free commercial reuse of our records, and we wish to exert some control on
how and by whom they are commercially exploited. Though we already make
our records freely available for the purposes of private interest,
research and study, their commercial reuse is a source of income for
RCAHMW, and we may wish to levy a charge on such reuse by licensing it
ourselves. Creative Commons license CC BY-SA would undermine this ability.
We may wish to waive license charges in certain circumstances, for
instance if an image is to be used in an educational work, but we must be
able to control the commercial licensing of our records in order to make
such decisions.

 

We would be happy to use a Creative Commons license with Wikipedia if this
was the Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0)
license. This is a very similar arrangement to how we currently make our
records available to public users. It allows them to access our records
for the purposes of research and study, and sets out the attribution
required if records are to be shared for non-commercial purposes. It does
not allow free commercial exploitation of our records.

 

I should also make clear, that when I say “our records” I’m referring only
to those records that we hold for which we have copyright. We also hold
many records for which the copyright rests with the originators or donors,
and we cannot make these records available through any Creative Commons
license. A very few of the records donated to us may be out of copyright,
but this is not always easy to discern and we have no definitive list of
such records. Where questions arise over their copyright, these are
addressed on a case-by-case basis. We have no Open Government Licensed
records.

 

If you wish to search and access our records on-line, please see our
public access system Coflein at [1]www.coflein.gov.uk .

 

I hope this information is of help, if you have any further queries,
please feel free to contact me.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

 

 

Gareth Edwards

 

 

**********************************************************

Gareth Edwards

Arweinydd Tîm
Tîm Archif a’r Llyfrgell

Team Leader
Archive & Library Team

 
Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
Plas Crug
Aberystwyth
Ceredigion SY23 1NJ

Ffôn - Telephone: +44 (0)1970 621223
Ffacs - Fax: +44 (0)1970 627701
E-bost:[email address].uk  
E-mail: [2][email address]
Gwefan: [3]http://www.cbhc.gov.uk
Website: [4]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk
Noddir gan Lywodraeth Cymru
Sponsored by Welsh Government

 

[5]Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol

[6]Join the Friends of the Royal Commission

 

References

Visible links
1. http://www.coflein.gov.uk/
2. mailto:[email address]
3. http://www.cbhc.gov.uk/
4. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/
5. Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/CYM/Amdanom+...
6. Join the Friends of the Royal Commission
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/About+Us...

Link to this

From: Llywelyn

Dear Gareth Edwards,

Many thanks for a very comprehensive response.

Many public bodies will do both: keep the high resolution files to
sell to customers such as publishers, and give away the low res
(600 - 1,000) on a CC-BY-SA licence, or similar. What stops you
from doing this?

Wikipedia, unlike yourselves, is a non-profit community of
voluntary editors and readers. Refusing to release these low-res
images does a great injustice to the people of Wales. It also goes
against your own Policies of widening access to the content which
you have been given charge of.

Lastly, you say: "A very few of the records donated to us may be
out of copyright, but this is not always easy to discern and we
have no definitive list of
such records."

I am astounded that this information isn't readily available on
your database. Date of death + 70 would take us back to a figure
which you can use to search your metadata. Please confirm your
statement.

Regarding the NP clause, can you also please provide me with a list
o all non-proft companies and other bodies who have received such
files? For you to ascertain who is "non-profit" and who isn't, you
must surely also have a concise definition. Do you include
contractors such as archaeologists?

Lastly, do you not see yourselves going against a tide of open
Government, free content and freedom of information? The Library of
Wales (and others) have stated that they do NOT own the copyright
of their files, they are custodians and enablers who wish to open
access to our heritage.

You, however feel you own these files, whereas in fact the real
owners are the people of Wales, who have a moral right to them.

Yours sincerely,

Llywelyn

Link to this

From: Llywelyn

Dear Gareth Edwards,

It may help you to know that the Minutes of the Meeting of Royal
Commissioners (Thursday 25 October 2012) do refer to Royalties.
Reference: http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/media/360.pdf

I would like the Finance Report refered to in point 10 and any
other information relating to Royalties to be made public.

Lastly, may I request that you discuss the following document in
your 18-19 February, Aberystwyth Board Meeting:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/innovationfell...

regarding Open Data.

Yours sincerely,

Llywelyn

Link to this

From: Gareth Edwards
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales


Attachment 13 2012 OctoberFinance Report.doc
54K Download View as HTML

Attachment 13 2012 Income historical.pdf
82K Download View as HTML

Attachment 13 2012 September Balance sheet.pdf
45K Download View as HTML

Attachment 13 2012 September Income.pdf
30K Download View as HTML


Dear Llywelyn,

 

Thank you for your further enquiry concerning income from  licensing the
commercial reuse of our records. The points you raised were as follows:

 

·         How much exactly was that income over the last five years?

 

The current  finance system can only supply the information in the form
you request from financial year 2009-10.  The finance system in operation
prior to that did not go to sufficient detail to break down the figures in
the manner you require. Royalties are detailed in the financial report you
have requested.

 

Accordingly, the annual income from licensing the commercial re-use of our
records is as follows:

 

2009-10                                         £4,410

 

2010-11                                         £3,620

 

2011-12                                         £4,230

 

2012-13 to date                         £3,030

 

·         Second, what is the average number of images sent out to a
paying

customer?

 

We do not keep records on the average number of images sent out, but these
may vary from single images to tens of images. Not all of these may be
requested for licensed commercial reuse, however. Some users may wish to
select particular images for further licensed use or just request images
for private study or research.

 

·         Third, how much do you charge per photograph at different

resolutions?

 

Our price lists for both the supply of images and other records and the
licensing of these are published on our web site as follows:

 

Supply of records:
[1]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv...

 

Licensing of records:

[2]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv...

 

·         Lastly, what were the total costs for providing this service
i.e.

the time and expense of marketing and fulfilling this service to

the customers over the last five years?

 

            The licensing of the National Monuments Record for Wales’
(NMRW) holdings for commercial reuse is part of the public enquiries
service of the NMRW. The service would continue regardless of whether an
enquiry might result in the licensing of an image, as would the work of
our public engagement and outreach team, who promote the services and
resources of the NMRW. Therefore, there is no separate cost for providing
or promoting the commercial licensing of our records.

The NMRW is the record and information arm of RCAHMW, the income and
expenditure of which is published in an annual report which is available
from our website, here:

[3]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/About+Us...

 

In relation to your subsequent enquiry, RCAHMW is a publicly funded,
non-profit organisation and one of its primary responsibilities is to
curate and make available the records of the National Monuments Record of
Wales to the general public. This it does free of charge either at its
public library and search room
[4]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv..., or
remotely via its enquiry service and public web access system Coflein
[5]http://www.coflein.gov.uk/ . We do not own the copyright of the records
where this does not reside with the donor or originator; our holdings are
subject to Crown Copyright, which we have delegated authority to
administer.

 

Use of the records and images is free to all, though there may be
reprographic charges if copies are required (as detailed above in the
Supply of records link). These charges are in line with other public
bodies and are reviewed regularly. However, we do charge for licensing
commercial reuse of Crown Copyright records, in order to generate income
for the public purse and fund further development of our services for
public users. For instance, if a television production company wishes to
use a Crown Copyright image in a broadcast, it is doing so to generate
profit for a private company. We therefore levy a charge on this use in
order to ensure part of this profit is passed back to the public. Where we
deem a commercial reuse to be of public benefit or to further the aims of
RCAHMW, particularly in the case of educational works, we may decide to
waive the license fee. This happens on a case-by-case basis; it is not
applied to “non-profit” companies and we have no list of such bodies. As
stated in my previous reply, we cannot place our Crown Copyright material
on Wikipedia under the current license it employs (i.e. CC-BY-SA) as this
would allow for free commercial reuse of the records with no chance for us
to ensure that some of the profit is clawed back for the public, or to
decide whether to waive license fees. This would be true even in the case
of lower resolution screen images, which could still be used in broadcasts
or certain publications.  We would certainly be happy to allow for use of
our Crown Copyright records on Wikipedia under a different Creative
Commons license which did not give users free rights to commercially
exploit the images.

 

As a public information body which makes its records freely available to
users via a range of means, including the world wide web, direct physical
access, a remote enquiries service, and various publications, we certainly
do not see ourselves going against the tide of open government. In fact
much of the work and energy of the NMRW goes into developing new and
innovative ways to make our records more accessible and searchable by our
public users, e.g. through access systems such as Coflein. You may be
interested to know that we hope to upgrade this service soon, to improve
the direct public searching of our archive catalogue online. Work on this
is currently ongoing and we hope to go live with it in a few months.

 

In relation to your question concerning out-of-copyright records, you will
appreciate that the archives collected by or donated to the NMRW come from
a varied range of sources and are often very mixed in nature, including
documentary records, photographic images, drawings, plans, etc. These
records may have been generated by a number of individuals, some
identified, some not. In addition, such records may have been taken into
our holdings a considerable time ago, well before electronic cataloguing
systems existed. Therefore, you will understand that to identify all the
originators of all the records we hold here, to ascertain their
whereabouts, and to find out whether they are still alive or dead, and
whether their death occurred over 70 years ago would be a monumental task.
Also, when you factor in that the originator of a particular record, even
if you can identify them, may not actually be the copyright holder as they
may have produced the record as part of their professional duties for a
particular company or practice, which may continue to exist and thus still
hold the copyright, you will see that producing a list of all
out-of-copyright records for several million individual record items is
not a simple matter. This is why the IPR status of many of the non-Crown
Copyright records that we hold is assessed on a case-by-case basis as the
issue arises.

 

With reference to your  further subsequent enquiry, I can find no mention
of a finance report in section 10 of the Commissioners’ minutes to which
you refer. A finance report is mentioned under 13, so I’m assuming that
this is the document you require and it is attached with its relevant
appendices.

 

I hope that this information is of help and that I have covered everything
in your e-mails.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Gareth Edwards

 

 

**********************************************************

Gareth Edwards

Arweinydd Tîm
Tîm Archif a’r Llyfrgell

Team Leader
Archive & Library Team

 
Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
Plas Crug
Aberystwyth
Ceredigion SY23 1NJ

Ffôn - Telephone: +44 (0)1970 621223
Ffacs - Fax: +44 (0)1970 627701
E-bost:[email address].uk  
E-mail: [6][email address]
Gwefan: [7]http://www.cbhc.gov.uk
Website: [8]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk
Noddir gan Lywodraeth Cymru
Sponsored by Welsh Government

 

[9]Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol

[10]Join the Friends of the Royal Commission

 

References

Visible links
1. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv...
2. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv...
3. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/About+Us...
4. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Our+Serv...
5. http://www.coflein.gov.uk/
6. mailto:[email address]
7. http://www.cbhc.gov.uk/
8. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/
9. Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/CYM/Amdanom+...
10. Join the Friends of the Royal Commission
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/About+Us...

Link to this

From: Llywelyn

Dear Gareth Edwards,

Many thanks for your quick and comprehensive response, which will
help me in my research. A few questions, however, remain:

1. "How much exactly was that income over the last five years?"
This question was answered fully. Thanks.

2. "What is the average number of images sent out to a
paying customer?" As you are unable to answer this question, can
you please tell me whether the income is only for sold images or
does it also include other goods e.g. Photocopies and Database
Printouts, Digital Datasets, Postage and Packing and Licence Fees?
Can you give me a break-down of all these elements for the year
2010-11?

3. "How much do you charge per photograph at different
resolutions?" This question was answered fully. Thanks.

4. "What were the total costs for providing this service?" You were
unable to answer this question, but provided a full explanation.
Thanks for that information.

I also asked:

"Regarding the NP clause, can you also please provide me with a
list of all non-proft companies and other bodies who have received
such files? For you to ascertain who is "non-profit" and who isn't,
you must surely also have a concise definition. Do you include
contractors such as archaeologists?"

My point here is that you surely must provide images and other
information to contractors (eg freelance archaeologists), without
charging them. These contractors (by the definition of the term)
make a profit; they are a business. The irony here of course is
that Wikipedia does NOT make a profit, it is not a business. You
must surely have a list of bodies, companies, independent
consultants to whom you give these images for free.

Releasing all images (and this includes watercolours and other art
forms) over 100 years old into the public domain would generate new
products, services, and jobs worth much more than the minuscule
£3,800 - £4,000 income you are generating at present. You received
£2,125,000 in grants, yet generate only a small fraction of this as
revenue for images. Allowing free access (for commercial and non
commercial) to these 2 million images you hold would boost the
Welsh economy and fuel a vast array of private-sector innovations.
In addition to this the people of Wales and further afield would
access these images on the most popular Welsh website on the
planet: Wicipedia Cymraeg - which has an average of 2.7 million
hits per month. This would also add to your 'hits' and count
towards your annual targets. Lastly, on all CC-BY_SA image you
would release, would be a direct link to your site.

Diolch yn fawr.

Yours sincerely,

Llywelyn

Link to this

Llywelyn left an annotation ()

If you set a tariff of £0.01 each on your 2m images it would only need 400,000 transactions to return £4,000, or 40,000 if the tariff were to be set at £0.10. that tariff could easily be collected as click-throughs using a 3D party. And as I have already mentioned, the added benefit to the economy would be in addition to this.

£4,000 income / royalties (if it is that much!) minus the costs of administering these sales is very small compared to your total income (mostly grants): I work that out at around 0.15%!!! These economical considerations alone suggest that you should drop the selling part of your business. Is the Welsh Government aware of such low royalties?

I also believe that businesses in Wales would pay you £4,000 per year for accessing these images: as a form of sponsorship. Have you thought of using this method to release these images to the wider audience?

I understand that many of your images appear side by side with commercial adverts on Facebook (through PCW). Are you happy with this situation? Wicipedia Cymraeg on the other hand have no commercial adverts.

Lastly, many of the people donated images to you did so for two reasons: firstly so that you would look after them as custodian and secondly so that they be shared. Have any of these asked you specifically not to allow commercial use?

Many thanks.

Link to this

From: Gareth Edwards
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales

Dear Llywelyn,

 

Thank you for your further request for information. In answer to your
queries:

 

The figure  quoted in our last reply referred only to income generated
through the licensing of images. The income quoted in the annual report
2010-11, published online here: [1]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/media/257.pdf
gives a total figure for the income earned by RCAHMW. The report also
breaks this income down, in graph form, by type. The figure for
photocopying, printouts, postage, etc. is designated “NMR Receipts”. We do
not keep records breaking down this figure down any further.

 

We do provide information to contractors, and we charge for licensing this
where it is published or reused. We may decide to waive licensing fees
where information is supplied back to us on a quid pro quo basis, which
further enhances the public record, especially where we are working in
partnership with a particular organisation. As explained in our previous
reply, this is not necessarily decided on a not-for-profit basis, but on
whether use results in furthering the aim of RCAHMW to promote the public
understanding of the archaeological, built and maritime heritage of Wales.
We do not keep a list of non-profit organisations or of organisations to
which we give images for free.

 

I hope this information is of help.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gareth Edwards

 

 

**********************************************************

Gareth Edwards

Arweinydd Tîm
Tîm Archif a’r Llyfrgell

Team Leader
Archive & Library Team

 
Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
Plas Crug
Aberystwyth
Ceredigion SY23 1NJ

Ffôn - Telephone: +44 (0)1970 621223
Ffacs - Fax: +44 (0)1970 627701
E-bost:[email address].uk  
E-mail: [2][email address]
Gwefan: [3]http://www.cbhc.gov.uk
Website: [4]http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk
Noddir gan Lywodraeth Cymru
Sponsored by Welsh Government

 

[5]Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol

[6]Join the Friends of the Royal Commission

 

References

Visible links
1. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/media/257.pdf
2. mailto:[email address]
3. http://www.cbhc.gov.uk/
4. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/
5. Ymuno â Chyfeillion y Comisiwn Brenhinol
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/CYM/Amdanom+...
6. Join the Friends of the Royal Commission
http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/About+Us...

Link to this

From: Llywelyn

Dear Gareth Edwards,

Many thanks for answering the above questions so promptly.

Diolch yn fawr.

Yours sincerely,

Llywelyn

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