Which LAW states humans can be taxed by Councils?

The request was refused by Carmarthenshire County Council.

angie of the elder family

Dear Sir or Madam,

Could you please provide written evidence of THE LAW that requires flesh and blood human beings to pay council tax?

I have investigated www.opsi.gov.uk/ and various other websites to find as much information as I can regarding council tax laws, but can only find information on the STATUTES or ACTS that apply to the PERSON or LEGAL FICTION, I cannot find a LAW that is applicable to HUMAN BEINGS being justifiably taxed by a council or local authority

I understand that, by legal definition, statutes and acts are defined as legislated rules of a SOCIETY which have been given the force of law, but in themselves are NOT LAW, and;

A society is defined as a number of people joined BY MUTUAL CONSENT to deliberate, determine and act for a common goal.

So in essence the STATUTES only apply to those who give consent i.e., are a willing member of the society.

I am looking for the LAW that applies to those human beings that have not mutually consented or have withdrawn their consent from a particular society, i.e., those humans beings that are no longer subject to the rules of that society.

So please provide evidence of the LAW (not the statute) which states that all humans (NOT PERSONS) are obliged to pay council tax (including humans who are not willing consenting members of society).

Please note, that if your response includes the word PERSON, PERSONS OR INDIVIDUAL, you have failed to answer my request, as persons are not flesh and blood humans, they are LEGAL FICTIONS and the term INDIVIDUAL is defined as meaning a PERSON which is also legal fiction NOT a human being , man or woman. Also, please do not direct me to ACTS, STATUES, or LEGISLATIONS as these do not apply to a Human being of flesh and blood who is in possession of an Immortal Soul. So please take care when providing a suitable response, I wish to know what LAW (not statute or act) obliges me, a woman, or HOMO SAPIEN to pay council tax.

Please provide also, a copy of the LAW which states a council may prosecute a human being of flesh and blood for Council Tax Arrears in ordered to recover what they term a debt.

I require a written copy of the procedure used by the Council to validate the information used to establish the arrears, i.e., if LOSS as defined as under COMMON LAW JURISDICTION is the justification for prosecution of a flesh and blood human, man or woman, can the council provide written evidence for that LOSS with full financial records and accounting to back up that debt, along with contracts committing both parties showing equal consideration, acceptance and signatures, when requested?
What process do they, the councils, use to distinguish between a human being of flesh and blood and a PERSON for such purposes of threatening prosecution?

Yours faithfully,without ill will, vexation or frivolity

angie of the elder family
without prejudice and with all unalienable rights and powers reserved

FOIA, Carmarthenshire County Council

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your request for information regarding council tax, which
was received on 27th April, 2009 and is being dealt with under the
Freedom of Information Act 2000. We are therefore required to provide
you with a response within 20 working days, which will be on or before
27th May, 2009.

If we require any clarification or further details, we will contact you
as soon as possible.

In the meantime, if you have any queries, please do not hesitate to
contact me, remembering to quote the reference number above in any
communications.

Yours sincerely

John Tillman

Swyddog Gwybodaeth a Diogelu Data

Adran y Prif Weithredwr

Cyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin

Information & Data Protection Officer

Chief Executive's Department

Carmarthenshire County Council

Tel: (01267) 246108

Mewnol/Internal: 6108

Ffacs/Fax: (01267) 246134

show quoted sections

FOIA, Carmarthenshire County Council

Dear Madam, 

I refer to your request for information regarding Council Tax, which was
received on 27th April, 2009 and has been dealt with under the Freedom of
Information Act 2000.

Firstly, I would explain that the Freedom of Information Act provides a
general right to be told whether or not a public authority holds recorded
information and subject to certain exemptions, be given the information.
It does not require an authority to create new information, provide
comments or answers to questions, unless of course these form part of an
existing record.

I will now respond to your request in the order it was presented using
numbered points as headings for ease of reference and clarity.

1. Evidence of the law (not statute) which states that all humans (as
opposed to persons) are obliged to pay Council Tax.

Whilst I note your views to the contrary, the Local Government Finance Act
1992 alone requires local authorities to collect Council Tax.

A copy of the Act may be obtained via the following link:

[1]http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1992/ukp...

No other relevant information is held by the Council.

2. A copy of the law which states that a Council may prosecute a human
being for Council Tax Arrears in order to recover what a Council would
term a debt.

The Council Tax Administration & Enforcement Regulations 1992 may be
accessed via the following link:

[2]http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1992/Uksi_19...

No other relevant information is held by the Council.

Under Section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act, a public authority is
not obliged to provide information where it is already reasonably
accessible to the applicant, which in this case, is via a government
website as detailed above.

3. A written copy of the procedure used by the Council to validate the
information used to establish the arrears.

Council Tax arrears information is obtained via specific programs within
the Council Tax IT system. There are no documented procedures for
validation.

4. Whether the Council can, upon request provide written evidence for the
arrears (which you refer to a loss) with full financial records and
accounting to back up that debt, along with contracts committing both
parties (the Council and the taxpayer).

All Council Tax accounts detail in full charges due, allowances given,
payments made and balances due and this information can be provided upon
request.  Contracts are not held.

5. What process Councils use to distinguish between a human being (of
flesh and blood) and a person for the purposes of threatening prosecution.

None is held.

As I have refused to provide information requested in relation to parts 1
and 2 of your request by virtue of Section 21 of the Freedom of
Information Act, please consider this email to be a formal notice of
refusal under Section 17 of the Act.

If you disagree with this decision or the way in which your request has
been dealt with, you have the right to complain in the first instance to:

 

The Head of Administration & Law

Carmarthenshire County Council

County Hall

Carmarthen

SA31 1JP

 

Email: [3][email address]
  
If you remain unhappy with any subsequent decision, you have the right to
appeal to the Information Commissioner to rule on your complaint.  You may
write to him at:

     
Information Commissioner
Information Commissioner's Office
Wycliffe House
Water Lane
Wilmslow
Cheshire
SK9 5AF
 

If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact
me.

Yours faithfully

John Tillman
Swyddog Gwybodaeth a Diogelu Data
Adran y Prif Weithredwr
Cyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin

Information & Data Protection Officer
Chief Executive's Department
Carmarthenshire County Council

Tel: (01267) 246108
Mewnol/Internal: 6108
Ffacs/Fax: (01267) 246134

Mae’r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw atodiadau yn gyfrinachol ac wedi’u bwriadu at
ddefnydd yr unigolyn y’u cyfeiriwyd ato/ati yn unig. Os derbyniwch y neges
hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i’r sawl a’i hanfonodd ar unwaith,
dilëwch y neges o’ch cyfrifiadur a dinistriwch unrhyw gopïau papur ohoni.
Ni ddylech ddangos yr e-bost i unrhyw un arall, na gweithredu ar sail y
cynnwys. Eiddo’r awdur yw unrhyw farn neu safbwynt a fynegir, ac nid ydynt
o reidrwydd yn cynrychioli safbwynt y Cyngor. Dylech wirio am firysau eich
hunan cyn agor unrhyw atodiad. Nid ydym yn derbyn unrhyw atebolrwydd am
golled neu niwed a all fod wedi’i achosi gan firysau meddalwedd neu trwy
ryng-gipio’r neges hon neu ymyrryd â hi.

 

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References

Visible links
1. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1992/ukp...
2. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1992/Uksi_19...
3. mailto:[email address]

angie of the elder family

Dear John Tillman,

Thank you for your response in regards to my request under the freedom of information Act concerning; which law states humans can be taxed by councils?

Whilst I appreciate your response I do require a little clarification of a couple of points you made.

With regards to your explanation that the Freedom of Information Act provides “a general right to be told whether or not a public authority holds recorded information and subject to certain exemptions, be given the information. It does not require an authority to create new information, provide comments or answers to questions, unless of course these form part of an existing record”. I am not aware that I asked you to create new information, unless you are implying that the information I have requested, namely, Which Law states humans can be taxed by councils? does not exist and that in actual fact there is no LAW that states a council can tax a human being, if that is the case can you confirm or deny that is the case.

I have on the other hand asked you to provide comments or answers to questions that do form part of an existing record. Or at least should be part of an existing record if the collecting of taxes from human beings is a lawful process.

You stated, in response to my request for evidence of the law (not a statute) which states that all humans (as opposed to persons) are obliged to pay council tax, that the Local Government Finance Act 1992 (which is a statute and not a LAW as I requested) alone require local authorities to collect taxes.

Can you clarify therefore, for my understanding that this particular statue alone is the only means by which a council is obliged to collect taxes, and that there are no other means in force that create the same obligation.

Also under the Local government Finance Act of 1992 where a local authority is required to collect tax, there is no mention that said tax can be collected from a direct human self section 6 (1) – (6) relates to “persons” liable to pay council tax but does not once mention taxation of a direct human self

According to Black’s law dictionary the definition of “person” in statute term is a legal representative; a person is a corporation. A person is the ‘persona’ of a living human being of flesh and blood in possession of an Immortal soul; a person is NOT a living human being of flesh and blood with a living immortal soul in itself, only a legal representative.

Therefore this statue that you have directed me to does not relate to human beings, only to a legal fiction. In which case it does not answer my question.

If no other relevant information is held by the council, no council can collect tax from a direct human self, can you please confirm this is the case in writing.

In response to question 2 whereby I requested a copy of the LAW which states that a council may prosecute a human being for council tax arrears in order to recover what a council would term a debt, you referred me to Council Tax Administration & Enforcement Regulations 1992. This is not a law it is a statue that has the force of law when given the consent of the governed, even so this act refers only to legal representations otherwise known as persons, NOT human beings. Is it also true that this statute alone is the only means in which a council can pursue prosecution?

Here you also state that the council holds no relevant information which clearly indicates that the council has no authority whatsoever to prosecute a living breathing human being of flesh and blood for council tax arrears. Can you please confirm my understanding of your statement? If not can you please correct my understanding?

Further you state that under section 21 of the freedom of information Act, a public authority is not obliged to provide information where it is already reasonably accessible to the applicant, which in this case is via a government website, i.e., www.opsi,gov.uk. My initial request states that the information that I seek is not available on this website and I did ask that you do not redirect me back to a website that does not contain the information I require. If, as you claim, the information I have requested is available “reasonably accessibly” elsewhere please direct me to that site.

Whilst I understand that under the freedom of information act you are not require to create information, i.e., create a document that lists the procedures followed in order to establish what constitutes an arrears, there must be procedures in place for this process to be carried out whether those procedures are documented or not. It is reasonable to conclude that these procedures are in place even if they are just verbally relayed to staff in circumstances of training colleagues to implement the actions, therefore on this assumption can you clarify whether or not the councils’ IT systems have been programmed sufficiently in order to distinguish between a direct human self and a person?

Under whose authority are both parties bound if no valid contracts are held between the taxpayer and the council? Do you require mutual agreement in order to transact? Is the statute only enforceable if the consenting party ( taxpayer) admits liability?

As you have refused to provide information in relation to parts 1 and 2 of my request by virtue of Section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act claiming that said information is reasonably accessible elsewhere, can you clarify in which area you regard the information to be available, as the sites you directed me to, do not provide the information requested and the lack of required knowledge therein are what lead me to making this request in the first place. Therefore your formal notice of refusal does not apply in that instance.

Whereas you have supplied “particulars of any procedure the authority has for dealing with complaints, or a statement that the authority does not have such a procedure, and must contain particulars of the right conferred by section 50 (application for a decision by the Commissioner)” as per section 17 subsection 72(7) I conclude that your formal notice of refusal relates to subsections (1)(3), or (5), therefore please confirm whether or not you are;
a) relying on a claim that the duty to confirm or deny does not arise, or on a claim that the information is exempt information, gives the applicant notice of that fact, specifying the exemption in question and stating (if that would not otherwise be apparent) why the exemption applies
b) you have decided, under section 2, that, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exclusion of the duty to confirm or deny, or in maintaining the exemption, outweighs the public interest in disclosing whether the authority holds the information or in disclosing the information itself, that authority must state the reasons for its decision or
c) you are relying on a claim that the cost of complying with the request would exceed the appropriate limit, or that the request is vexatious or repeated, in which case you must give the applicant notice of that fact within the time limit set down for complying with requests.

If you are unable to clarify any of the information given in your responses and feel that you can elaborate no further on the information requested i.e. the information I seek is not held within your capacity please forward this request to the Head of Administration & law as per your suggestion in the hope that the points raised can be confirmed or denied in order to further my knowledge and understanding.

Sincerely Yours, without ill will, vexation or frivolity
Angie: of the elder family
WITHOUT PREJUDICE and with all unalienable rights and powers reserved

T. Morgan left an annotation ()

Wow can I have some of what you sprinkle on your cornflakes! lol great stuff!

I'm still waiting for the local government corporation to reply to my request for proof that I entered into a lawful contract with them for the debt (council tax) they demand I pay.

FOIA, Carmarthenshire County Council

Dear Madam,

Thank you for your email. I feel there are no further comments I can add regarding this matter and that my response to your request was sufficiently clear. This being the case, and as suggested in your email, I am referring this to the Head of Administration & Law to be dealt with as an appeal.

Yours faithfully

John Tillman
Swyddog Gwybodaeth a Diogelu Data
Adran y Prif Weithredwr
Cyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin

Information & Data Protection Officer
Chief Executive's Department
Carmarthenshire County Council

Tel: (01267) 246108
Mewnol/Internal: 6108
Ffacs/Fax: (01267) 246134

show quoted sections

Phil Grafton, Carmarthenshire County Council

Dear Madam

I refer to your appeal, which was received by us today.

Mr D L Thomas, Head of Administration and Law will now conduct a review of
our initial response to your request and I will be assisting him with that
task.

I expect the matter to be determined or or before Monday 1st June 2009,
but if there is any need to extend that period I will write to you again
and explain any reason for the delay.

Yours sincerely,

Phil Grafton

Mae’r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw atodiadau yn gyfrinachol ac wedi’u bwriadu at
ddefnydd yr unigolyn y’u cyfeiriwyd ato/ati yn unig. Mae’n bosib bod yr
e-bost hefyd yn cynnwys gwybodaeth gyfreithiol freintiedig. Os derbyniwch
y neges hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i’r sawl a’i hanfonodd ar
unwaith, dilëwch y neges o’ch cyfrifiadur a dinistriwch unrhyw gopïau
papur ohoni. Ni ddylech ddangos yr e-bost i unrhyw un arall, na gweithredu
ar sail y cynnwys. Eiddo’r awdur yw unrhyw farn neu safbwynt a fynegir, ac
nid ydynt o reidrwydd yn cynrychioli safbwynt y Cyngor. Dylech wirio am
firysau eich hunan cyn agor unrhyw atodiad. Nid ydym yn derbyn unrhyw
atebolrwydd am golled neu niwed a all fod wedi’i achosi gan firysau
meddalwedd neu trwy ryng-gipio’r neges hon neu ymyrryd â hi. Ni fydd y
Cyngor yn derbyn dogfennau a gyflwynir yn y cyfeiriad e-bost hwn at
ddibenion cyfreithiol, oni chytunir ar hynny yn ysgrifenedig ymlaen llaw
gyda’r sawl sy’n eu hanfon.

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angie of the elder family

Dear Phil: of the Grafton family,

Under the freedom of Information Act this request is currently overdue a response which means you are breaking the Law.

So, what is your actual penalty then for engagigng in law breaking activity? Is prosecustion to be enforced as it would be if I were to "break the law" by not paying council tax, for example?

Although not paying council tax cannot actually be considered or defined as breaking the law, can it? As, judging by your lack of response to my reuqest about whether or not there is a law that states human beings are required to pay council tax, there is no LAW that sates human beings ARE required to pay any council tax at all.

I will conclude that your silence constitutes your tacit agreement and confirmation that there is no law that states human beings are oblighed to pay council tax, unless of course you can come back to me and catagorically state, and provide written confirmation that, yes there is a LAW , not statute , that specifically states that a human being of flessh and blood and in possession of an immortal soul is liable and obliged to pay council tax and can be prosecuted for not doing so, which incidently is the response that I wanted to my inital question.

Thankyou for yur clarification in this matter

Yours sincerely, without ill will, vexation or frivolity

angie of the elder family

Phil Grafton, Carmarthenshire County Council

1 Attachment

Dear Angie of the Elder Family

I enclose the determination of Mr D L Thomas regarding this matter.

Yours sincerely

P J Grafton

show quoted sections

Ben Jones left an annotation ()

You appear to opose paying tax, I'm therefore assuming that you do not make use of the following.

1. The roads,
2. Rubbish collection
3. The Police
4. the Health Service
5. Street lights (unless of course you live in Powys and Ceredigion where these are being switched off)
6. Local parks
7. Subsidised transport
8. Libraries

In answer to your question a simple google search will have given you the precise legislation which allows for the Councl tax.

Ian-James: Kerr left an annotation ()

a legislation is NOT a LAW

angie of the elder family left an annotation ()

Ben: Jones ,

for your information you actually assume correctly and furthermore i asked about the Law NOT the legislation, they are not one and the sme. Are you aware of the differences between the two , if not I suggest you go and research it. Try starting with a good legal dictionary

nik charles left an annotation ()

Have just read this thoroughly as there appears to be a major flaw in the determination from Mr D L Thomas.

In his determination (item 3), he has cited a definition from the Oxford dictionary to define a "person". I believe this is inappropriate.

There are correct LEGAL definitions of "person" and "human being" available from law dictionaries.

By not clarifying the exact meanings of these words, Mr Thomas may have made a mistake in reaching his NO answer, due to lack of understanding of the words used.

(item 5) of the determination makes the situation even less clear when referring to "persons or individuals" This appears to indicate another category distinct from "person" status that also has no stated definition here.

Mr Thomas states his title as "Head of Administration and Law" I am concerned that, in not knowing and staying within the terms of a legal definition, he may have provided a response that is not correct, either legally or lawfully.

Billy Bleach left an annotation ()

Try going to Dunn&Bradstreet, www.dandb.co.uk and search for your relevant council. You have to type in your details to conduct a search, but dont worry you wont be conducted by anyone as it states you will be! LOL Type in your council's name and it will list all COMPANIES registered under this name. For example, i searched Hertfordshire County Council and it came up with 10 listings. Underneath it may describe what name it is trading as. So, in this case there are two school's registered as HERTFORDHSIRE COUNTY COUNCIL but trading as ........Junior School. Unless you buy a CUSTOMER REPORT you can not see the important details. I purchased a report, which you can see instantly, and it turns out that HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL had a CCJ filed against them this year, 05/06/09!

Now, I'm not entirley sure but I'm fairly sure that a registered company, for profit, can not excert authority over a natural 'thing', or human being in this case YOOU AND I!((you are defined as a ''thing'' in Blacks Law dictionary, dont know which edition!))Why?? A company is not natural. It does not 'live'. It only exists on paper. In Legal term's it is known as MORT-MAIN, in Latin, or DEAD-HAND. SO a registered company can not charge you Tax because it is only a piece of paper. All councils are registered companies because they have to exist as a corporation so they can CONTRACT with you, your legal person...a corporation, and need you to say 'YES, THATS RIGHT I AM A PERSON. PLEASE IMPOSE YOU UNLAWFUL TAXES ON ME''. Every tax you pay is UNLAWFUL!

But hold on! If all governemnt agency's are registered as companies, including Magistrates, even the highest court in the land which is not listed anymore, that means this country has been existing unlawfully for over 400 years?!?! Thats right, even this counrty is registered as a corporation. But all this info has disappeared off the web-site because it is owned by the Government! Oh, and a massive fire destroyed all the paper records this year too...hhmmm???

Look at www.tpuc.org

Thank you for your time.
YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU!

sven : of the family selah left an annotation ()

when providing a definition to words used in statute , legislation or law the words used can only be the language that is used to write the law or statute and in the case of statutes that language is legalise. Legalise is a spoken, as well as a written language that looks and sounds like English, but is not English, that is why there are Law Dictionaries and English dictionaries,that is the con. It is like location in french is rental or hire the same word in English is different. And so to use an English dictionary to define a word used in legalise is deliberately misleading. I word say fraudulent.

sven : of the family selah left an annotation ()

when providing a definition to words used in statute , legislation or law the words used can only be the language that is used to write the law or statute and in the case of statutes that language is legalise. Legalise is a spoken, as well as a written language that looks and sounds like English, but is not English, that is why there are Law Dictionaries and English dictionaries,that is the con. It is like location in french is rental or hire the same word in English is different. And so to use an English dictionary to define a word used in legalise is deliberately misleading. I would say fraudulent.

Adam left an annotation ()

Please look at my letter

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/co...

i found in their own legislation that they can only give notices and not bills. details in the letter via the link

Tony Parker left an annotation ()

Ben: Jones ,

you forgot

Ben: Jones ,

you forgot

9. Army ... A force sent to invade other countries unlawfully and kill innocent human beings ... men, women and children.
10 Legal system ... a corporation created to lie, steal, and unlawfully incarcerate human beings.

chris of the kinch family left an annotation ()

All correspondance from the COUNCIL skirts around and evades the the fact that, a statute is only given the power of law if it has the concent of the governed..

Perhaps Ben Jones can explain how council tax banding works. i.e why do I pay more council tax than some one two streets away when we both use the same public services...

Lion left an annotation ()

Oldham council are a bunch of clowns