Is the LR internal file 'reasoning' of a boundary change subject to FOIA, or not?

Jt Oakley made this Rhyddid Gwybodaeth request to Land Registry

This request has been closed to new correspondence from the public body. Contact us if you think it ought be re-opened.

Roedd y cais yn rhannol lwyddiannus.

Dear Land Registry,

I was informed last Friday - by a Land a Registry officer - that the Land Registry it is NOT subject to any Foia enquiries because everything the LR does is now chargeable.

Yet I see that there are responses placed on this site.

So I am confused.

1. Please therefore state exactiy which files ( criteria /category ) are available under FOIA- and which are not.

2. I wished to know why the LR had changed a boundary, without the land, on which the boundary was drawn previously, being sold.

I provided proof of the unexplained change - with the two consecutive LR map documents.

The reasoning behind the boundary change is what I require - not the chargeable maps, as I already have them.

So I would like to know who ( anonymised if necessary) gave the instruction for the boundary to be changed ...and the LR reasoning behind this boundary change.

4. Is this 'reasoning' situation covered by accessing LR files under FOIA since the instruction must be an internal document, or is this another chargeable service?

5. And if the LR ONLY changes boundaries at the instruction of Ordnance Survey, as the officer stated , or if an LR employee can decide to change them. if so,which officer/s( job description)

6. I would also like to know if boundary changes can done in-house by LR - with no reference or notification to the owner/s of the land .....who have previously lodged their LR documents with their solicitors.

7. If receipt of the 'LR reasoning' boundary change files is a chargeable service ....how much does it cost?

Yours faithfully,

Jt Oakley

Customer Support, Land Registry

LR Reference 150608-001696

Response By E-mail (Sue Macey) (10/06/2015 13.49)
Dear Mr Oakley
Thank you for your e-mail dated 7 June 2015.
The main purpose of Land Registry is to maintain the register of land in
England and Wales. The register has been open to public inspection since
December 1990. You can inspect any of the 22 million registers we
currently hold and obtain official copies of them and any documents
relating to that register that are available as of right under the Land
Registration Act 2002 and the Land Registration Rules 2003 (LRR
2003) Please note that a fee is payable for this service. Where
information is available as of right, we will ask you to complete the
appropriate form under the LRR 2003
In general the documents available as part of our statutory services are
the register and title plan, any documents referred to on the register and
any other documents and correspondence that we hold which relate to the
registration of land, subsequent to the date of first registration.  In
some cases earlier deeds may be available.
It would seem that the remainder of the enquires are in relation to a
specific property or area which may relate to one or more title numbers.
Would you please be so kind as to supply the relevant title numbers so
that the matter can be investigated and the reply tailored to your
specific needs and where appropriate estimated costs can be provided in
relation to the information that is available.
 
yours sincerely
 
 
Sue Macey
Wales CCC 3
Land Registry Wales Office | Ty Cwm Tawe | Phoenix Way | Llansamlet |
Swansea | SA7 9FQ

Email: [1][email address]
Telephone: 0300 0060411

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Dear Customer Support,

Thank you.

But I have the registry documents on the land in question.

That is not the issue.

I was asking why a boundary was suddenly re-drawn on the second document....

The internal LR file reasoning for changing a LR map marked boundary - when no land has been sold.

Logically someone must have taken the decision to ' move'a boundary on LR records.

Therefore are files showing the LR reasoning for a boundary change - when no land has been sold- available under FOIA?

Yours sincerely,

Jt Oakley

Gadawodd Diana Smith anodiad ()

Dear Jt Oakley
it would appear there are quite a few of us members of the UK Public having exactly the same problems with Land Registry holding documents ( copies or un described) , that differ from the original documents we ourselves hold.
What is clear is that staff at Land Registry feel free to act outside of what their prescribed remits are , to avoid performing service roles, without being challenged by the majority of Members of Parliament or indeed the Courts.
To repeat what John Hemmings MP said in his Early Day Motions ( EDM'S) 699 & 700, it cannot be scientific to deny the supplying of information while pushing matters on through the Courts and even further on to the European Courts.
The advice of my solicitor is that a miscarriage of justice has occurred with my conveyance document for the purchase of my registered title being stolen and held by Land Registry. As the ruling in his judgement by HH Justice Peter Smith on 03/02/2012 was l could take matters back to the High Courts in London if a miscarriage of justice has occurred, then all that remains is for Land Registry to stop hiding behind the skirts of The Home Office regarding the wrong information the HO holds. I have lobbied my newly elected MP Victoria Atkins to write to the HO on my behalf to have this wrong information corrected and hopefully leave Land Registry having to explain their sinister actions in matters where they had no right to breach the Human Rights Act, being already on record with the Information Commissioners Office for failing to comply with a valid DPA(SAR) to avoid lawfully providing me with a copy of my own conveyance document that their own records show my needing this document on 26/09/2008.
I was told by KUH Land Registry's Mark Lawson at my meeting with him said 26/09/2008, that everything had been Land Registrys own mistakes / errors , and they would rectify the register at no cost to myself.
So much so that Mr Lawson would not take my completed Land Registry Form , provided by his Assistant Registrar ( John Edon), as he stated the land to be already registered as told me by his colleague Yvonne Owen on 15/02/2007.
However as Mr Lawson had refused me as a registered disabled person with limited mobility, from having my carer attend me ( my carer had to wait outside in the car after having driven me to this pre- booked appointment), it is a case of his word against mine.
Although you would wonder why l would put myself with fragile health and needing assistance to attend such a meeting and my then coming away without lodging the paperwork intended to be lodged that day.

Gadawodd Diana Smith anodiad ()

Dear JT Oakley
I have located crucial information that l need to send to you.
Please supply contact details?

Dear Customer Support,

Thank you.

But I know the documents which are available for sale.

They are listed on the LR internet site.

I am asking if internal files are available under FOIA.

This may be of public interest ..as I was told categorically that the LR was NOT subject to FOIA by a LR officer.

I have subsequently found this to be untrue as, on appeal, I have received a file.

But it has thrown no light on why a property boundary has been redrawn, without a sale taking place.

Previously when the LR redrew my property boundary without my knowledge, it had to pay me a substantial amount of money. This was after years of failing to answer my enquiries as to why it had been changed.

In the end my MP took up the challenge and forced the LR to stop refusing to provide an answer to my enquiries and pay me for the land it had wrongly transferred to someone else.

Therefore if the LR changes boundaries without the property owner's knowledge, there should be some internal file reasoning as to WHY a boundary change has taken place.

I would therefore appreciate some guidance - which would be helpful to those who have been given the same wrong FOIA advice by LR officers, as to the documents which are available under FOIA and how the LR makes the distinction between documents for sale and those that are available under FOIA.

Yours sincerely,

Jt Oakley

Customer Support, Land Registry

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Customer Support, Land Registry

LR Reference 150704-000008

Response By E-mail (Sue Macey) (06/07/2015 14.17)
Dear [title redacted] Oakley

Thank you for your e-mail, the contents of which are noted.

On checking the tread attached to this e-mail, you were not advised that
Land Registry is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

The current open register provisions are contained in the Land
Registration Act 2002 and the Land Registration Rules 2003. These
provisions describe how people can inspect our registers, including
previous editions, and obtain copies of them. The fact that the register
is open to public inspection therefore reflects a legal requirement and is
not simply the result of Land Registry policy.

An open register supports transparency and simplifies and expedites the
conveyancing process. We remain satisfied that the advantages of an open
register outweigh any possible disadvantages. It is worth noting that
nearly all land registries in the world operate with an open register.

Other, non-register information held by Land Registry can be the subject
of requests under the Freedom of Information Act. All requests are
considered on their own merits but, of course, in dealing with such
requests, we are always mindful of our obligations to protect personal
data.

In order that we may investigate the matter further, would you please
supply the title number or full property description of the land in
questions so that our investigations as to the available information my
proceed. Without this information, we are unable to assist you.

yours sincerely

Sue Macey
Wales CCC 3
Land Registry Wales Office | Ty Cwm Tawe | Phoenix Way | Llansamlet |
Swansea | SA7 9FQ

Email: [1][email address]
Telephone: 0300 0060411
Customer By CS E-mail (J T Oakley) (04/07/2015 07.21)
Dear Customer Support,

Thank you.

But I know the documents which are available for sale.

They are listed on the LR internet site.

I am asking if internal files are available under FOIA.

This may be of public interest ..as I was told categorically that the LR
was NOT subject to FOIA by a LR officer.

I have subsequently found this to be untrue as, on appeal, I have received
a file.

But it has thrown no light on why a property boundary has been redrawn,
without a sale taking place.

Previously when the LR redrew my property boundary without my knowledge,
it had to pay me a substantial amount of money. This was after years of
failing to answer my enquiries as to why it had been changed.

In the end my MP took up the challenge and forced the LR to stop refusing
to provide an answer to my enquiries and pay me for the land it had
wrongly transferred to someone else.

Therefore if the LR changes boundaries without the property owner's
knowledge, there should be some internal file reasoning as to WHY a
boundary change has taken place.

I would therefore appreciate some guidance - which would be helpful to
those who have been given the same wrong FOIA advice by LR officers, as to
the documents which are available under FOIA and how the LR makes the
distinction between documents for sale and those that are available under
FOIA.

Yours sincerely,

Jt Oakley

dangos adrannau a ddyfynnir

Dear Customer Support,

Thank you.

But I have not stated that the information came from this thread.

If you insist on knowing who informed me that the LR was not subject to FOIA and SAR it was
LR officer Gerald Dyer.

In addition, you state that;

'All requests areconsidered on their own merits but, of course, in dealing with such
requests, we are always mindful of our obligations to protect personal
data'.

My understanding is that all FOIA requests are subject to the Act and therefore they have no 'merit'.

Merit : the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

The Law either applies - or it does not.

Therefore I would presume that all internal files where officers discuss- or make - boundary changes ..(as someone must have made a decision to change a boundary- files are but changed by themselves ...and a change must therefore be noted on file by someone ) would be subject to FOIA.

Perhaps you would be good enough to clarify that that is the case.

Yours sincerely,

Jt Oakley

Customer Support, Land Registry

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| [1]Image Thank you for contacting Land Registry.  Your reference |
| number is 150706-003884.  We'll be in touch soon. |
| |
|   |
| |
| We usually reply to online enquiries within the next full |
| working day, and are committed to responding to all online |
| correspondence within five working days. If we believe that |
| it may take longer we'll contact you to let you know. |
| |
|   |
|  In the meantime, you may find an answer to your enquiry at |
| [2]www.gov.uk/land-registry |
| |
| We will respond to Data Protection Act requests within forty |
| calendar days and Freedom of Information Act requests within |
| twenty working days. |
| |
| Read more about our [3]service standards |
|   |
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Gadawodd Diana Smith anodiad ()

Dear JT Oakley
my involving the PHSO in March 2009 and copying the AHMLR into that MP referred letter, and when l had previously lodged complaint letters with both KUH Land Registry and Legal Services Commission ( Land Charges) in 2003; did nothing to encourage the correction / rectification ( of the register).of an "error" in the caution register that had been lodged in 1999. Here is the most shocking factor, l had reported an attack and rape on me at Mablethorpe Police Station to WPC Prigeon and made a statement on 19/10/1999. The names l gave when making this statement were connected with the then un-actioned lodging of this caution and depended on using a wrong post code and the theft of my own conveyance document in able to lodge it. In these respects this amounts to some serious degree of communication between the five parties seeking to deprive my registered title of properties / land, involvement of Lincolnshire Police and also Land Registry acting outside of their remits when accepting declarations lodged at the same time as the wrongly lodged post codes , using " Ireland Property / Land Law". I could be forgiven for perceiving Land Registry view themselves above all laws including the committing of serious crimes, and their involving themselves with such organised crime?

Gadawodd Jt Oakley anodiad ()

It seems to be a very secretive organisation.

It took me such a long time to sort things out last time as my letters to them were returned to me..unanswered.

It want until my MP backed me that there was any progress at all. With the result that it had to pay for its mistake.
It's guiding rule is seemingly to pretend nothing has happened. And refuse to communicate.

Gadawodd Diana Smith anodiad ()

Julius Juispais from the Adjudicator to HM Land Registry confirmed to me in writing that the AHMLR did not involve themselves in matters involving " wills" or "probate" , when their deputy adjudicator Angus Andrew ( a barrister / commissioner for Legal Services Commission / live in partner of Ruth Wyatt- Director of Legal & Governance for LSC), allowed an "unprobated will" into evidence , when it has not been disclosed and wasn't seen by me until five months after the AHMLR hearing. Mr Juispais instructed me to keep resending the form and copies of my correct documents ( for my registered title) to Land Registry until they accepted them and processed them correctly. They would be sent back ( sent three times). Elizabeth Derrington ( Independent Complaints Review) , pannicked when a Solicitor wrote to Land Registry asking where my conveyance document was, and after four years of her doing nothing, she demanded Land Registry hand over my conveyance document and offer me £250.00p for my inconvenience. She also provided me copy of the ICR file where it showed John Edon ( Ass Land Registrar at KUH Land Registry), had told the ICR that the AHMLR was not answering him, which was the same as he told me on 23/06/2009 when he telephoned me and said that " you must put in for a stay on the adjudicators decision". This was because the owner of part of the involved land , who was thought to have died, was still alive. My Solicitors written advice was to inform Land Registry of this persons existence . An " alliance" appears to have been formed between Angus Andrew ( Adjudicator ) and John Edon, to misdirect me to ask for the "stay" , to enable the overlooking of my appeal, as both bodies treating the asking for a stay ( because of the existence of the excepted owner of part of the land) as " my appeal". My actual appeal that the Chief Adjudicator ( Edward Cousins ) allowed me an extension of time for (asked for by my Solicitor) was totally over-looked, although confirmed to ave been received. Edward Cousins then wrote to me two months later chastising me for not bothering to put in an appeal when he had allowed me extension of time in which to lodge my appeal. The Courts were given a false date for refusal to my appeal at the final charging order hearing, and l was persued relentlessly until over £73,000.00p was taken from me. Considering one Solicitor timed me out over the matter of costs and was on record to be billed for these costs, the whole thing is so out of kilter , you just could not make it up. The producing of my conveyance document ( that had been stolen) or copy of it ( asked for under the DPA in March 2009, from Land Registry), would have prevented my already registered title from being deprived of properties and vast amounts of land. Even when Land Registry were put on record by The Information Commissioners Office for breaching the DPA, they while on record, continued on 07/09/2011 , to give a further 50 acres with my registered title away to the persons who put the "error" caution against my title in 1999, that l supplied Land Charges ( LSC) with this "error paperwork" in early March 2000. The involvement of FORTY- THREE STAFF at LSC including Robbie Crane as Head of their Civil Bills, between 1999-2005, failed to correct the " error" , even when £ 6,900.00p was wrongly credited to the account of one of the cautioners in 2002 & 2003. This "error" was still in place when l spoke to Land Registry on 15/02/2007 and has been allowed to continue to allow the farce of nineteen Court Hearings to cover up

Gadawodd Jt Oakley anodiad ()

That sounds horrendous Diana.

The commonality seems to be that the Land Registry ignores communications.

If you protest that something has gone wrong, it doesn't seem to have a complaint system.

So you cannot put it right. Therefore any employee mistakes (?) are covered up.

Because land is worth a lot - it's possible that there is fraud within the LR.

Otherwise why not have a proper complaints system?

If it hasn't been for my MP wading in and getting backing from Lord someone or other, the LR would have covered up the fact that they redrew my boundary and gave my land to someone else ...all without telling me.

I signed a petition yesterday asking that the LR be kept in public ownership.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/s...

Yet it seems to have been operating as a private fiefdom for years. Ignoring any correspondence.

So I'm wondering if it was the right decision.

A private company might treat the public with more respect.

Gadawodd Jt Oakley anodiad ()

I have decided to ask exactly what the LR process is when it changes a boundary.

Therefore making a new request with different scope.