Dear Sir or Madam,

Will you confirm or deny the County transferred all the land it
owned in Seaforth to Sefton Council by deed in 1974 and has not
owned any land in Seaforth since.

Yours faithfully,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

Request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

We are writing to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 16th November
2008, in which you request the disclosure of information under the
provisions of the above Act.

We have begun a search for the information you require and shall contact
you again when we are in a position to respond further. Should we
envisage any delays, or require more details from you, we will contact
you immediately.

In the meantime, if you have any queries about the above, do not
hesitate to contact us, quoting ref. RFI 631/2008.

Yours sincerely,

On behalf of the Freedom of Information Team

Freedom of Information | Access to Information Team

Lancashire County Council, PO Box 78, County Hall,

Preston, PR1 8XJ

Tel: 01772 531116 | 01772 530949

show quoted sections

A 4-star council: awarded top marks by the Audit Commission
********************

Dear Mr Robinson,

Request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Further to your email, dated 16th November, in which you request the
disclosure of information under the provisions of the above Act, we are
now in a position to respond.

In accordance with the 1972 Local Government Act, the County Council
transferred all its property interests in respect of land in Seaforth
and in the (then) Merseyside County Council as a whole, on 1st April
1974. On the dissolution of the Merseyside County Council, the Deeds
would have transferred to the Residuary Body, and subsequently on to the
District Councils.

Please note that certain properties or land may never have been in the
ownership of Lancashire County Council, as same would have been in the
ownership of the Borough Councils prior to Local Government
reorganisation.

We trust that our response is satisfactory, but in the event that you
wish to complain about the manner in which your enquiry has been
handled, you should write in the first instance to The Freedom of
Information Officer, Lancashire County Council, PO Box 78, County Hall,
Preston PR1 8XJ, or email [Lancashire County Council request email]

If, after this stage, you remain dissatisfied, you have the right to
refer the matter to the Information Commissioner, whose contact details
are as follows:

The Information Commissioner

Wycliffe House

Water Lane

Wilmslow

Cheshire

SK9 5AF

Tel: 01625 545700

Email: [email address]

Website: http://www.ico.gov.uk <http://www.ico.gov.uk/>

If you have any queries regarding our response, or you require any
additional information, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel: (01772) 531116

Fax: (01772) 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

A 4-star council: awarded top marks by the Audit Commission
********************

Dear Freedom of Information,

Your response refers to the "deeds (premsumably held by Merseyside
County Council) being transferred to the 'District Council' from
Merseyside County Council" and not transferred to Sefton MBC by the
County Council, will you please clarify.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

Further to your email of 18th November, we can confirm that any Deeds
that were held by Lancashire County Council and which should have been
transferred to Merseyside were transferred in 1974. In approximately
1985 the Residuary Body was set up with the task of sorting out the
handover of Merseyside County Council functions (including Title Deeds)
to the District Councils. We understand that Merseyside County Council
ceased to be in 1986.

The Residuary Body were responsible (amongst other things) for the
handover of Merseyside County Council's Deeds to the relevant District
Council.

We trust that this clarifies matters and will now close your request.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel: (01772) 531116

Fax: (01772) 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

A 4-star council: awarded top marks by the Audit Commission
********************

Dear Freedom of Information,

Are you saying that the deeds in question were not transferred to
Sefton in 1974. Please clarify.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

Further to your email of 18th November, we have now had the opportunity
to consult further with the Deeds Manager. Having made extensive
searches of available records, the Deeds Manager is able to confirm
that, whilst various Deeds in respect of various Committees went to
Merseyside, it would appear that Education and Social Services land went
Directly to Sefton (or the relevant District Council if not Sefton) in
1974.

In any event, all the Deeds eventually ended up at the relevant District
Councils via the Residuary Body after the disestablishment of the
Merseyside County Council. Therefore, any Sefton records that were
transferred to Merseyside will have ultimately ended up with Sefton.

We hope this clarifies matters, and I apologise for any confusion caused
by previous responses. In the event that you wish to complain about our
handling of your request, please refer to the details in previous
correspondence.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel: (01772) 531116

Fax: (01772) 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

A 4-star council: awarded top marks by the Audit Commission
********************

Dear Freedom of Information,

I find your answer confusing as to the date the deeeds 'went' to
Sefton from the Residual body - if the Residule body was not set up
until 1985- it appears the deeds went to Sefton in 1985 or later,
can you clarify.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

Our previous correspondence clearly states that deeds in respect of
Education and Social Services land went "Directly to Sefton in 1974"

However, other deeds not included in the above were not transferred to
Sefton in 1974, but to Merseyside, and were subsequently transferred to
Sefton, from Merseyside, by the Residual Body several years later. In
addition, we can confirm that Lancashire County Council has not owned
any land in Seaforth since.

We believe that this satisfies your request that we "confirm or deny the
County transferred all the land it owned in Seaforth to Sefton Council
by deed in 1974 and has not owned any land in Seaforth since".

We apologise for any earlier confusion caused, but now consider this
request closed.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information
Lancashire County Council
PO Box 78
County Hall
Preston
PR1 8XJ

Tel: (01772) 531116
Fax: (01772) 530949
Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

When you say the County has "not owned any land in Seaforth
since...." do you mean "since 1974", or "since" these "other deeds"
of the County's land - apart from the "educational and social
services land - owned by the County were "sent to the Residual Body
several years later".

With regard to the "educational and social services land", is this
the land at Kepler Street Seaforth used to build the Star of the
Sea, Infant and, Junior Schools on after the Star of the Sea School
in Seaforth Vale was closed and the pupils transferred to the above
new Schools.

Do you still hold records of the title numbers of the land you
refer to above so that I may identify it via the Land Registry.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

All relevant deeds were transferred in 1974, whether direct to Sefton or
to Merseyside County Council.

Further, having regard to the nature of the 'whatdotheyknow' website,
should you wish to introduce new questions, it may be better in future
to 'register' these new questions as a new request. We have answered
your original enquiry; however you have now introduced new questions
within the same 'thread'. Lancashire County Council has 20 working days
to respond to these new questions, yet that will not be reflected on the
'whatdotheyknow' website, which will show that your original enquiry of
16th November remains unresolved. Separating new questions into new
requests will, hopefully, minimise the risk of any future confusion.

Please note that the deadline for responding to your new enquiries is
30th December 2008. Your new request has been given our reference
number 669/2008, and we would be grateful if you could quote this in
future correspondence to avoid confusion.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

I am responding to your contentions regarding my FOI request as
they do not seem to add up, the core question has been divided into
separate parts by your references to other agencies with
responsibilities for passing the Counties land deeds to third
parties on different dates.

The point is that the land the deeds refer to needed to be owned by
a legal owner at the time it was sold by the party in who's
possession it was to give them good title for the sale, from my
investigations it appears that land belonging to the County was
sold on by third parties without the correct title deeds and has
resulted in forged title deed being put on the public record.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

We note your comments. However, we reiterate that we consider your
request of 16th November, in which you asked "Will you confirm or deny
the County transferred all the land it owned in Seaforth to Sefton
Council by deed in 1974 and has not owned any land in Seaforth since"
to be completed.

Your subsequent questions of 29th November have been logged as a new
request (our ref. 669/2008), with the deadline for responding being 30th
December 2008.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

For the avoidance of doubt, will you tell me precisely what you
perceive my new request to be in plain English.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

For the avoidance of doubt, the new questions that you have introduced
are numbered below.

1. "With regard to the "educational and social services land", is this
the land at Kepler Street Seaforth used to build the Star of the Sea,
Infant and, Junior Schools on after the Star of the Sea School in
Seaforth Vale was closed and the pupils transferred to the above new
Schools."

2. "Do you still hold records of the title numbers of the land you refer
to above so that I may identify it via the Land Registry."

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

Information from the Land Registry indicates that part of this land
was owned by the church and not the County or the Borough Council
(Crosby).

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

I am not entirely sure what your last message is referring to, or what
relevance it has to your two latest questions.

Freedom of Information Team
Lancashire County Council
PO Box 78
County Hall
Preston
PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116
Fax. 01772 530949
Email: [Lancashire County Council request email]

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

Its what the Land Registries lawyer tells me.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

Further to your email, dated 29th November, in which you request the
disclosure of information under the provisions of the above Act, we are
now in a position to respond, and answer each of your questions in turn,
below.

1. With regard to the "educational and social services land", is this
the land at Kepler Street Seaforth used to build the Star of the Sea,
Infant and, Junior Schools on after the Star of the Sea School in
Seaforth Vale was closed and the pupils transferred to the above new
Schools?

Lancashire County Council holds no information relevant to this aspect
of your enquiry. As previously advised, we have been unable to locate
any information about a Lancashire County Council connection to the Star
of the Sea school.

2. Do you still hold records of the title numbers of the land you refer
to above so that I may identify it via the Land Registry?

Lancashire County Council holds no information relevant to this aspect
of your enquiry; we do not hold any Title Numbers relating to the land
referred to previously.

Should you wish to complain about the manner in which your enquiry has
been handled, please refer to the details in our response of 18th
November.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

show quoted sections

A 4-star council: awarded top marks by the Audit Commission
********************

Dear Freedom of Information,

Conflicting information.

Are you saying that the "Education and Social Services land" went
"directly To Sefton in 1974" as, the Land Registry tell me that
land was land under an agreement made on August 7 1967 between
Crosby Council and the Roman Catholic Church and, is the land that
the Star of the Sea Infant and Junior schools were subsequently
build on but, the Crosby Council archive indicates that land was
"earmarked" for the Counties Education Department to build schools
and playing fields on during the "county wide slum clearance
program" initiated by the County in the 1950's and executed in the
1960's.

Should your Education Department have any records of this matter,
i.e. when the infant department was build (it is on the 1969 OS)
and when the Junior department was build (its on the 1978 OS) and
who organised the construction work. The Infant school was
demolished as part of the development in the area in 1994. Will
your Education Department have any information on this.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Mr Robinson,

We have now advised on two separate occasions (emails dated 25th
November and 26th November) that Education and Social Services land held
by Lancashire County Council was transferred directly to Sefton in 1974.

We have previously advised you that all deeds in respect of land in
Seaforth were transferred in 1974 and that the County Council has not
owned any land in Seaforth since.

We have also advised that we have been unable to locate any information
regarding the Star of the Sea School, Seaforth.

You will no doubt appreciate that many of the records held by Lancashire
County Council prior to local government reorganisation in 1974 will no
longer be held by Lancashire County Council, and will have been
transferred to the relevant newly-created authorities.

In light of this, I'm not sure what we can add to what you have already
been informed.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

I know you have given me "an" answer, but it conflicts with "the"
information I have which is that:

After complaint by the Manager of the Star of the Sea Infant School
about a mound of earth on the site for the Star of the Sea Junior
School in September 1998 the land was:

"Being sold to the Lancashire County Council."

This was clearly after it had been the subject of the:

"Land comprising an agreement between Crosby Council and the
Archdiocese of Liverpool on August 7th 1967".

This land was initially part of the "Lancashire County Development
Plan 1951" that was revised in 1956.

At the May 1968 meeting of the Lancashire County Council Education
Committee, they approved the first phase of the Star of the Sea
Junior Department under the "Special Building Program."

There is also mention of land, which appears to be part of the
Lancashire 'school land' sold by Sefton Council in 1993 being the
subject of a "statutory declaration."

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

That may very well be the case. However, we are unable to comment,
because, as previously advised, Lancashire County Council does not hold
any information about this. The County Council MAY have held such
information in the past, but as you have been previously advised, any
records pertinent to areas arising from local government reorganisation
in 1974 will have been transferred to those new authorities.

We will therefore reiterate that Lancashire County Council holds no
information relevant to your request.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

When you say the County holds no "information" regarding the
"deeds" it transferred to Sefton, the "information" is not
necessarily confined to "deeds" held or not held only in the deed
room archive, as surely, like Crosby Council, the County has
"information" regarding the activities of its various committees in
its archive which, like Crosby Council's, record the details of the
building projects and purchase of land it was involved in with, and
independent of, the County during the 1950's and 1960's which will
not have been transferred to Sefton therefore, you seem to be
limiting your response to the contents of the deed room and not to
the contents of the County's records in general. is this the case.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

For the sake of clarity:

You originally asked Lancashire County Council to confirm that it "transferred all the land it owned in Seaforth to Sefton Council by deed in 1974 and has not owned any land in Seaforth since."

We subsequently informed you that such deeds were transferred in 1974, either directly to Sefton, or to Merseyside County Council. We also confirmed that Lancashire County Council has not owned any land in Seaforth since.

As you were asking about the transfer of deeds, we logically consulted with the Deeds Manager. With regard to ownership of land in Seaforth since, we contacted the County Council's Property Group, who checked their records.

You subsequently asked the following additional questions (on the 29th November):

1. whether "the 'educational and social services land' was the land at Kepler Street Seaforth used to build the Star of the Sea, Infant and, Junior Schools on"; and

2. "Do you still hold records of the title numbers of the land you refer to above so that I may identify it via the Land Registry."

In previous requests that you submitted to us over the last year regarding access to information relating to the Star of the Sea School, we advised you that we held no information relevant to your enquiries, and that you should contact Sefton Borough Council. Dealing with those requests involved the Deeds Manager and the County Archivist, and we also made enquiries with the Lancashire Records Office. One document relating to the Star of the Sea School was found; on retrieval, this was discovered to be a single-sided page of A4 paper, and was a questionnaire on which all schools were asked to list the number of items (books etc.) in their possession. This document was obviously of no relevance to your enquiry. No other information was found.

Regarding the title numbers of land transferred, the Deeds Manager confirmed that title numbers of transferred deeds were not retained.

Whilst it is possible that there may be a passing reference to the Star of the Sea School in archived minute books, etc., locating any such information would require a manual search of a large number of records that would undoubtedly require a commitment of resources in excess of the appropriate limit of £450. When a search would exceed such a limit, Section 12 of the Freedom of Information Act states that public authorities are not obliged to comply with the duty at Section 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information Act (the duty to confirm or deny that requested information is held).

Should you wish to visit the Lancashire Record Office, please see their website for more information about visiting hours:

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/education/r...

We now consider your request of 29th November closed; our attempts to locate any information relevant to your requests have been more than reasonable. If you wish to complain about the handling of your request, please refer to the procedural details previously supplied. As advised, if you have not already done so, we suggest you contact Sefton Borough Council to assist with your enquiries.

Any further questions will be considered new requests for information with a new 20 working day deadline.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

Given what you say is true, it seems you can neither confirm or
deny that what you have told me is true or false without checking
your archive and, it may be that the County do still own land in
Seaforth.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Freedom of Information,

WILL YOU PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS FOI REQUEST AS IT IS NOW OVERDUE

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Freedom of Information,

I TRUST THAT YOU ARE INVITING ME TO COME TO PRESTON AND CONDUCT MY
OWN SEARCH OF YOUR ARCHIVE WHEN YOU SAY:

"Whilst it is possible that there may be a passing reference to the
Star of the Sea School in archived minute books, etc., locating any
such information would require a manual search of a large number of
records that would undoubtedly require a commitment of resources in
excess of the appropriate limit of £450. When a search would exceed
such a limit, Section 12 of the Freedom of Information Act states
that public authorities are not obliged to comply with the duty at
Section 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information Act (the duty to
confirm or deny that requested information is held).

Should you wish to visit the Lancashire Record Office, please see
their website for more information about visiting hours:

AND THAT YOU ARE CONFIRMING THAT I CAN RELY ON THE ASSISTANCE OF
YOUR DEEDS MANAGER IN THIS SEARCH ?

I ALSO TRUST THAT YOU ARE CONFIRMING THAT THERE ARE NO OTHER MEANS
THAN THE ABOVE AVAILABLE, SUCH AS HELD BY ANOTHER DEPARTMENT OR ON
ANY DATA BASE THAT THE COUNCIL HAS, TO ANSWER MY FOI REQUEST ?

I TRUST THAT THE COUNCIL ALSO HAS RECORDS OF THE MINUTES OF ITS
DEPARTMENTS MEETINGS ON ITS PUBLIC RECORD THAT I CAN PERUSE ?

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson

Dear Mr Robinson,

With regard to your first email of 3rd January, in which you state that a response is now "overdue", we respectfully draw your attention to our email of 26th November, in which we responded to your original request (your request dated 16th November), and our email of 8th December, in which we responded to your subsequent questions (your subsequent questions were received by Lancashire County Council on 29th November).

It can therefore be seen that we took 8 working days to respond to your initial request, and 6 working days to respond to your subsequent questions. Responses to your requests for information are thus not overdue.

With regard to your most recent email of 3rd January, any visitor to the Records Office can utilise the assistance of Records Office staff; please note, however, that this does not include the Deeds Manager as the Deeds Manager does not work in the Records Office.

The Records Office contains a vast amount of documentation, some of which will probably include historical minutes of departmental meetings. You can search the contents of the Lancashire Record Office online at the following URL:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/a...

Be sure to select 'Lancashire Record Office' from the drop-down menu in the 'repository' box.

This request is now closed.

Freedom of Information Team

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel. 01772 531116

Fax. 01772 530949

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

THE QUESTION:

16 November 2008

Dear Sir or Madam,

Will you confirm or deny the County transferred all the land it
owned in Seaforth to Sefton Council by deed in 1974 and has not
owned any land in Seaforth since.

Yours faithfully,

fred robinson

WAS NOT POSED ON JANUARY 3RD 2009 IN MY" FIRST E-MAIL:

With regard to your first email of 3rd January, in which you state
that a response is now "overdue", we respectfully draw your
attention to our email of 26th November, in which we responded to
your original request (your request dated 16th November), and our
email of 8th December, in which we responded to your subsequent
questions (your subsequent questions were received by Lancashire
County Council on 29th November).

It can therefore be seen that we took 8 working days to respond to
your initial request, and 6 working days to respond to your
subsequent questions. Responses to your requests for information
are thus not overdue.

With regard to your most recent email of 3rd January, any visitor
to the Records Office can utilise the assistance of Records Office
staff; please note, however, that this does not include the Deeds
Manager as the Deeds Manager does not work in the Records Office.

The Records Office contains a vast amount of documentation, some of
which will probably include historical minutes of departmental
meetings. You can search the contents of the Lancashire Record
Office online at the following URL:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/a...

YOURS SINCERELY

FRED ROBINSON

Dear Mr Robinson,

We shall not be entering into further correspondence on this matter,
unless it is requesting an internal review.

Freedom of Information

Lancashire County Council

PO Box 78

County Hall

Preston

PR1 8XJ

Tel: (01772) 531116

Fax: (01772) 530949

show quoted sections

Dear Freedom of Information,

I REQUEST AN INTERNAL REVIEW.

Yours sincerely,

fred robinson