Status Of Land In Gerrards Cross

This request has additional information on this subject but was posted under an incorrect local authority.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ja...

There is information on another Jardin Smith site in Water Orton here.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/pl...

Apparently this company are selling Green Belt land to Asians and telling them the Green Belt can be developed in as little as 3 years.

The Gerrards Cross land in question lies within the Green Belt where there is a presumption against new development according to South Bucks local authority.

South Bucks Local Authority have clearly stated their policy on this land here
http://www.southbucks.gov.uk/environment...

In summary quoted below

".....the Council can meet its development requirements at least to 2026 without the need for the release of any land from the Green Belt for development.

If the plot of land you are interested in is currently in the Green Belt it is very likely to remain as Green Belt – in which case the strongest policies of restraint upon development will still apply.

Please give serious consideration to the above points before purchasing any plots advertised as an investment opportunity. It is likely that they are not."

"This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom they are addressed"

This statement which is on the footer of every email you get from a council in the UK is one of the key reasons that "What Do They Know" and sites like it must continue to exist. If I send a private request to the council I can be given information that tells me an investment scheme may be a scam (selling Green Belt Land for investment purposes without telling people of the very tiny chance of it happening seems like a scam to me) but I am not allowed to tell anyone else.

UK democracy in action.

Blog post about Gerrards Cross land being sold in Singapore and Malaysia, referring to this request as important information for purchasers.

http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2010/09/l...

i would like to thank the south bucks council and steve f for such great information provided.

i was invited to jardin smith international talk about few weeks ago. their investment on the land in gerrards cross really attracted me to invest as the land is very strategic. However, i needed to do more research on this before i commit my money into it.
thanks to this letter, i have confidence in this company as i believe that the land that these professionals bought will give me a fair share of returns.

This site provide good information
http://www.cartoplus.co.uk/south_bucks./...

Worth a diversification guys. A great opportunity but in the end its all down to you guys to decide.

Hello Rachel,

I have no idea how you could reach a conclusion that this is a good or even diversified investment unless you work for Jardin Smith.

South Bucks stated that they have a clear plan until at least 2026 without looking at the Green Belt. That does not mean they will suddenly develop all the green belt in 2026 only that they may need to review then.

I may quote from the official South Bucks website not the broken link out of date link you have proposed.

http://www.southbucks.gov.uk/environment...
------------
"The Core Strategy and its evidence base demonstrate that the Council can meet its development requirements at least to 2026 without the need for the release of any land from the Green Belt for development.
If the plot of land you are interested in is currently in the Green Belt it is very likely to remain as Green Belt – in which case the strongest policies of restraint upon development will still apply.
Please give serious consideration to the above points before purchasing any {green belt} plots advertised as an investment opportunity. It is likely that they are not."
-------------

I have checked on the value of green belt land that cannot be developed close to London based on recent transactions. The value is less than 5% of the prices currently being charged in Asia by certain agents.

There is a fairly consistent practise of presenting Land Banking plots as a "diversified investment" which tends to focus on the principle that land is being purchased, and that land generally is a good investment over time. This is only true if the right price is paid for the land.

As Pierre B mentions the flaw in this logic is that the land plots being offered under these schemes are normally marked up 15 to 50 times against true value depending on the company. For the sale to succeed the purchaser is required to ignore the true value, and asked to imagine a future scenario where the land is able to contain expensive housing. This is done through the use of graphics and videos showing house layouts or even pictures of actual houses on the land. According to the company this highly optmisitic picture if realised could generate 3-10 times profit for the investors.

The reality is there have been no successful conversions under these schemes in the last 10 years. The majority of Land Banking companies failing in 2-5 years once the land is sold to small investors or once the real status of the land as green belt is understood. Land investors are left with small plots of green belt land which may have a tiny residual value but are almost impossible to sell.

The outcome is the land plots get dumped on e-bay for a few hundred pounds or are held and if not maintained may revert to the farmer using the land under the 12 year rule.

I was at Jardin Smith sales talk hosted at KL Malaysia, they mention Gerrards Cross will be converted from agriculture land to residential development land, and the process will take 5 to 8 year. Once the status successfully converted, investor can gain as much as 7 times the return. However they did not mention Gerrards Cross is protected land. Since the Green Belt policies will protect the land for at least to year 2026. I don’t see how is it possible for investor to gain 7 times the invested return within 5 to 8 year? Or the next 10 to 15 year? Unfortunate during the event I saw many investor jumps into the purchase. I was lucky to saw this posting and did not loss my money on this. I will try informing the press & media about this. Great research work you have Steve F. Thank you for caring.

Well, enough said! Invest Land in the Canada or the USA instead. I chose Walton!
It just makes perfect sense, land being cheap and there is so much of land to grab in Canada compared to the UK.
Just look at the statistics below and you'll understand why.
With Jardin Smith, you'll be buying land in a country way too congested. The density per sq km is 652 in UK.
In Canada, the density per sq km is only 3!
I leave it to you to make the right choice. The best investors always go back to basics, which is demand and supply!
Once you do that, you will always be able to make a better decision!

UNITED KINGDOM
Land area: 93,278 sq mi (241,590 sq km); total area: 94,526 sq mi (244,820 sq km)
Population (2010 est.): 61,284,806 (growth rate: 0.2%); birth rate: 10.6/1000; infant mortality rate: 4.7/1000; life expectancy: 79.1; density per sq km: 652
Capital and largest city (2003 est.): London, 7,615,000 (metro. area), 7,429,200 (city proper)

Read more: United Kingdom: History, Geography, Government, and Culture — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108078.h...

CANADA
Land area: 3,511,003 sq mi (9,093,507 sq km); total area: 3,855,102 sq mi (9,984,670 sq km)
Population (2009 est.): 33,759,742 (growth rate: 0.8%); birth rate: 10.2/1000; infant mortality rate: 4.9/1000; life expectancy: 81.3; density per sq km: 3
Capital (2004 est.): Ottawa, Ontario, 1,142,700 (metro. area)

Read more: Canada: History, Geography, Government, and Culture — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107386.h...

I would caution the many Asian investors currently being offered UK and Canadian land investment schemes that almost all the land banking plots being offered have no realistic prospect of return. Most of the land offered under such schemes is offered at a highly inflated prices typically 10 -100 times what the land is worth. Most of the land has no prospect for development.

Is your scheme different ?
Land banking plot scams offer ownership of land. On average land values appreciate each year. This information is used to conclude in sales presentations in shopping malls and 5 star hotels across Asia that this is a low risk investment because:-
1: When the land is developed it will be sold at a huge profit
2: If the land can not be developed it can still be sold at current value. The investor assumes current value to be what they paid for it plus some appreciation each year.

The reality for most investors is that five years into the future the investor discovers that the land plot they paid $30,000 for cannot be developed. Because the land cannot be developed the true value has appreciated from $500 to $550. If the investors try to sell the land the selling and legal expenses will absorb anything that is left.

i attended one sales presentation and raised a few points which i think is relevant - the replies were borderline convincing, but comes with a few caveats. judge for yourself.

key points to note, as per presentation:

1. each investor will hold individual land title to the sub-plots

2. JSI to hold 25% of the plot to retain voting rights in the event of a sale of the entire parcel to property developers. if there is a 60% majority vote to sell to developer, then ALL investors will have to sell, regardless whether u want to keep it as a souvenir. Effectively, that means they only need a yes from 35% of the sub-plot owners since JSI holds 25%.

3. JSI to take 7% of the profits from the sale of the individual investor's sub-plot as commission in the event of a sale

4. exit strategy is disposal of the land in a maximum of 20yrs in the event the land is not converted or developed.

5. booking fee is 10% cash up front, with balance 90% to be remitted in CASH within 7 days (installment / bank loans or financing is not an option)

assuming everything is legit and above board...

Q1. in order for developer to acquire and develop the parcel of land, ALL sub-plots will have to be released by the individual investors. What is the guarantee that there won't be few or many individual investors not wanting to release the land to the developer, regardless of whatever the agreement / contract says?

A1. agreement / contract to be signed giving JSI the power of attorney tomanage the sub-plots. also, investors to agree to NOT develop the sub-plots themselves. eg if i were to invest, i receive the land title, i own the piece of land, but i cannot erect / construct / develop / occupy the land in the interim.

Q2. what exactly is in the agreement / contract and what are the jurisdictions provided to JSI under the power of attorney?

A2. JSI will go through the agreement with investor upon signing of S&P

Q3. is the agreement / contract viewable BEFORE putting down the 10% booking fee?

A3. investors is not allowed to take home to study the contract before putting down the 10% booking fee. the actual agreement is not viewable until booking has been made. however a sample can be viewed. rest assured that JSI is transparent in all dealings.

--- this raises my eyebrows of course... how can i decide whether i want to put a 10% booking fee on something i don't even know whether i will agree to, ESPECIALLY with the inclusion of power of attorney? ---

Q4. what happens if i do not agree to the jurisdiction set forth in the power of attorney?

A4. investors MUST agree, otherwise there is no deal.

--- at this point, i forgot to ask if i would get a 100% refund on the 10% deposit / booking fee if there is no deal ---

my CONCERN with the power of attorney is that even if i indeed do hold the land title, i will be forced to give JSI the power of attorney to act on my behalf. who's to say JSI won't liquidate the land without my express consent and disappear overnight?

without knowing the content of the contract, only a fool (or a risk taker or someone who has very good faith in the other party) will put a 10% booking fee...

You miss some key points.

The local authority have already said this land cannot be developed.
You seem to think there is some kind of 20 year guarantee anyway so let me ask some questions on that .

Who will sell the land in 20 years ? Jardin Smith will almost certainly not exist then as most land banking companies have a life span of less than 5 years before they close down or are shut down by the authorities.

Who will buy the land? It is protected green belt land cut into small plots with many different owners spread across several countries in Asia. It's a legal and administrative nightmare.

How much will you get paid for the land? Land banking plots are marked up typically between 10 and 100 times their open Market value. With an average 5% appreciation in non developed land values and assuming best case that you only paid a ten times markup it will take 50 years before the land is worth what you paid. That excludes any impact from inflation and legal and maintenance costs.

You would get a better return by putting your money in a small pile and setting fire to it. At least you would have a few moments of heat and light.

Joe Piper : yes, i did miss the few key points you mentioned, what i wrote up there was the actual Q&A between me and the sales person ... i was unaware of the fact that the local council had already said that the land would not be considered for development for the near forseeable future, despite the fact that the sales person actually did mention that the land is sitting on a green-belt.

i would also like to point out the fact that EVEN IF the land is earmarked for development, it still sounded not right!

HOWEVER, in all fairness, land DO appreciate in value over the years, if you're not looking at mid-term investment, but rather an investment for your future generation, say 100 to 200 yrs down the line - it MIGHT be worth considering :P we're certainly not going to realise the gains within this lifetime ;)

what we don't like is of course the false representation of the facts by the company, agree?

Looks like if an investor take the risk, it may be well after 2026 b4 he can actually see a return on the land near Gerrard Cross marketed under Jardine S Int'l. That means about 16-17 years. Didn't the contract mentioned that by the 20th year, they will have to exit? And if no development still, the investment may be worth little. But if there is development planning approved, it could mean something?

The earliest this could gain planning permission is 16 years away based on local authority statements.

I don't like to see 16-17 years since that seems to suggest a development range. The range is actually earliest = 2026 to latest = never.

This land is sold at very high prices in small plots to profit hungry Asian investors. If South Bucks were selecting green belt land for development after 2026 they have a huge amount of uncomplicated locally owned low price greenbelt land to choose from. Why work with this site ?

I don't see this site ever being developed.

I went to see JSI yesterday to hear more what know about the Gerrards Cross land which was not disclosed to me at the presentation 10 days ago. They showed me a report from the South Bucks district Council which did identify Gerrards Cross land with development potential. I enquired about South Bucks statement that stated that the council is unlikely to release any greenbelt land for development until after 2026. JSI said that potential investors have been advised accordingly of the risk and have to decide themselves. Since I was not comfortable with this and also that the tax law may change eventually on capital gains tax in UK, I decided to withdraw from the scheme and seek a refund. They were quite professional about it and asked me to complete a form for the refund. So its up to each investors to consider the risk.

HI BRIAN,THANKS FOR THE INFO, How did you manage to get back your 10%? I have put in 10% down payment AND I REALLY WANT TO GET BACK MY MONEY AS ITS MY RETIREMENT FUNDS. JSI was in PJ ONE WORLD hotel last sunday .Land sold were in ROMFORD , UK. AT RM65 THOUSAND A PLOT..JSI SALES REP SAID THAT 30PLOTS WERE SOLD that day, AND ONLY LESS THEN 10 PLOTS LEFT.ITS SALES TALK. WELL A LESSON LEARNED .DO NOT INVEST IN PROMISES 20 YEARS AWAY. JSI MIGHT NOT EVEN EXIST!!I ask who is the owner and they say SIMON COOK from UK. SINGAPORE MAS HAS ALREADY EXPOSE HIS FORMER TIME SHARE SCAM.!!!this is not new to him , just change the product, then its a new business all togather

Aly

There is a what do they know request for the Jardin Smith Romford Land Banking site here:-

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ja...

You may also wish to see this news link here:-
http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/ha...

Best regards

The owner of this land is Simon Cook, Uk born living in Singapore, Still has business intrests & a home in Kingston Upon Hull uk,Seems to make the monies out of selling parcels of green belt land & promising great returns by getting planning permission but highley unlikley? Re investing this money in uk buying rental properties, bars resteraunts mainly in Kingston Upon Hull,Surrounds himself with cronies from Kingston Upon Hull & always seems to have front men covering his identity? How do i know all this? I worked with him in Tenerife selling timeshares for then property owner john Palmer. If you look hard enough you will find that he still deals in timeshares holiday management appartments ect all of which seem to have people unhappy with whats happening with their investments. Want to know more ??? Ask.