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IPSAS25 and State Employee Pensions
Nick Leaton made this Freedom of Information request to National Audit Office
The request was successful.
From: Nick Leaton
7 December 2009
Dear National Audit Office,
There are two accounting standards, International Accounting
Standard 19 (IAS19) for the private sector, and the International
Public Sector Accounting Standard 25 (IPSAS25)
According to IPSAS25, the public sector, occupational public sector
pension liabilities should be included on the balance sheet.
The Treasury states that “financial reporting by central government
bodies should be based on generally accepted accounting practice
(GAAP) adapted where appropriate to take account of the public
sector context" [11th Report of the Financial Reporting Advisory
Board.]
However you do not do this. I would like all minutes and discussion
papers justify or discussing why the NAO does not include these
liabilities in the government balance sheet. Even if your position
is that some other country doesn't do it, I would still like to see
any information as to why the NAO chooses to go against standard
accountancy practice. [State employee pensions are a contractual
obligation, and the reality should be reflected in the accounts.
Yours faithfully,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
8 December 2009
YOUR REFERENCE: request-24359-44f59f57
OUR REFERENCE: FOI-418
Dear Mr Leaton,
Thank you for your email in which you requested information relating to
the National Audit Office's (NAO's) interpretation of IPSAS25 in relation
to the NAO's audits of the public sector.
Specifically, you have requested:
. copies of all minutes and discussion papers justifying or
discussing why the NAO does not include occupational public sector pension
liabilities in the government balance sheet;
. any information as to why the NAO chooses to go against standard
accountancy practice in this matter.
Your request was received on 8th December, 2009, and I am dealing with it
under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act, 2000. If you have any
queries about this email, please contact the FOI team. It would be
helpful if you could quote our reference number, above, in any future
communications about this request.
Yours sincerely,
Joseph da Silva
FOI Team
National Audit Office
Information Centre
157-197 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SP
email: [1][NAO request email]
Tel: +44 (0)20 7798 7264
Temporary Headquarters Relocation. Our headquarters building is being
refurbished. But please note that during this period our postal address
and telephone numbers remain unchanged. However, if you are visiting you
will find us located next door at: 151 Buckingham Palace Road, Victoria
London SW1W 9SS. The main entrance is in Colonnade Walk
The information contained in this email, and any files transmitted with
it, is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
Such information may be confidential and privileged, and no mistake in
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From: Nick Leaton
8 December 2009
Dear Joseph,
Thank you for your acknowledgement.
Yours sincerely,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
6 January 2010
REFERENCE: FOI-418
Dear Mr Leaton,
Please find attached the final response to your recent request made under
the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Yours sincerely,
Tara-Lee Platt
FOI Team
Elizabeth Centre 3
National Audit Office
151 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SS
Tel: 020 7798 7264
Fax: 020 7798 7903
Email: [NAO request email]
Web: www.nao.org.uk
The information contained in this email, and any files transmitted with
it, is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
Such information may be confidential and privileged, and no mistake in
transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege.
If you have received the email in error, please notify the NAO's Post
Master at mailto: [email address].
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the
presence of computer viruses.
Please visit our website at www.nao.org.uk
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Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or
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From: Nick Leaton
10 January 2010
Dear National Audit Office,
Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of
Information reviews.
I am writing to request an internal review of National Audit
Office's handling of my FOI request 'IPSAS25 and State Employee
Pensions'.
I am requesting an internal review of this request. The answer
giving was one stating the position of the NAO with regard to the
accounting method.
However, I requested minutes and documents discussing the decision
making process and arguments for and against this decision.
The reason is that I want to investigate why the NAO has taking its
approach, not the results of those discussion which are in the
public domain.
There is a strong suspiscion that the NAO is being used to hide the
true extent of the contractual liability levels of government. In
particular keep contractual obligations such as civil service
pensions off the books. Cherry picking a non standard accounting
practice is one approach to this.
So I would like to request in internal review into the failure to
supply the documentation in the request.
A full history of my FOI request and all correspondence is
available on the Internet at this address:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ip...
Yours faithfully,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
12 January 2010
Dear Mr Leaton,
Thank you for your email of 10 January in which you requested an internal
review on our handling of your recent Freedom of Information request (Ref
FOI-418).
I confirm that this review is underway and is being carried out by a
senior member of staff who was not involved in decisions concerning your
original request.
We will send you the outcome of this review as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Tara-Lee Platt
The information contained in this email, and any files transmitted with
it, is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
Such information may be confidential and privileged, and no mistake in
transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege.
If you have received the email in error, please notify the NAO's Post
Master at mailto: [email address].
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the
presence of computer viruses.
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Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or
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From: Nick Leaton
26 March 2010
Dear ms Platt,
I'm still waiting for an answer to this.
Can you tell me who was appointed to do the review so I can contact
them directly?
If not, I will have to make a formal complaint to the ICO on the
matter. Since you are so far out of the window for a review, the
ICO would automatically find against you.
Yours sincerely,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
26 March 2010
Dear Mr Leaton,
Thank you for your email.
I am sorry for the length of time that it is taking for you to receive our response to your internal review.
The internal review is almost complete. The reviewer highlighted some documents which was felt might fall within the scope of your FOI request. We have been required to consult with a third party regarding the relevance to your request of these documents. This consultation has taken longer than anticipated and we are only now in a position to consider our response to you in light of this consultation.
We are giving this due consideration and hope to send you a final response to the internal review in the next week.
Once again, apologies for the delay, but please be assured that we are giving the matter our attention and will respond as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Joseph da Silva
FOI Team
National Audit Office
Information Centre
157-197 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SP
email: [NAO request email]
Tel: +44 (0)20 7798 7264
show quoted sections
From: Nick Leaton
16 April 2010
Dear Mr da Silva,
In you response dated the 26th, you stated that there would be a
reply in the next week.
It's now 2 weeks past that deadline.
Can you please tell me what the result of the review has been.
Yours sincerely,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
20 April 2010
Dear Mr Leaton,
I must apologise for the ongoing delay in sending you our response to your internal review.
I have checked progress and can confirm that the final response is being finalised and that we hope to send it to you within the next two days.
Yours sincerely,
Joseph da Silva
FOI Team
National Audit Office
Information Centre
157-197 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SP
email: [NAO request email]
Tel: +44 (0)20 7798 7264
show quoted sections
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
28 April 2010
FOI 418 Internal Review Response.pdf
177K
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2.MDA PSPC Minutes of Fourth Meeting 2 October 2001 REDACTED P1.pdf
119K
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3.MDA HMT Treatment of FRS 17 in CGA and Links to Pension Schemes P1.pdf
163K
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1.MDA PSPG Minutes 2nd Meeting REDACTED P1.pdf
123K
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4.MDA FRAB 36 Briefing REDACTED P1.pdf
73K
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Dear Mr Leaton,
Please find attached the outcome of your request for an internal review on
our handling of your Freedom of Information request (Ref FOI-418).
and the documents for release.
Yours sincerely,
Nora Miller
FOI Team
157-197 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SP
TEL: 0207 798 7264
email: [1][NAO request email]
[2]http://www.nao.org.uk/
The information contained in this email, and any files transmitted with
it, is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
Such information may be confidential and privileged, and no mistake in
transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege.
If you have received the email in error, please notify the NAO's Post
Master at mailto: [email address].
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the
presence of computer viruses.
Please visit our website at www.nao.org.uk
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Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or
recorded for legal purposes.
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1. mailto:[NAO request email]
2. http://www.nao.org.uk/
From: Nick Leaton
28 April 2010
Dear Nick,
Thank you for your reply. I will read the papers in detail.
However, you reply doesn't actually answer the question asked. In
particular I asked about IPSAS25 which is a relatively new
accounting standard, and the papers supplied under the FOI review
process refer to an older standard FRS17. Whilst relevant, the
government doesn't apply this to its accounts. The government debt
figures are quoted as 800 bn, which is entirely gilts. The civil
service pension liabilities are around 1.1 to 1.2 trillion by my
calculations, and as an extrapolation from the previous figures
published some years ago.
As such I have to ask you a couple of questions about your
response.
1. Are you categorically stating that there is no information about
IPSAS25? (It comes into force from Jan 2011)
2. Are you also stating that the civil service liabilities are
published? Again I have to question your statement that they are. I
have had an FOI request for the information rejected on the grounds
that it was due to be published last year. However it hasn't.
Perhaps something to do with the election or the state of the
government finances. Imagine people's reaction when the liabilities
jump from 800 bn to 2 trillion, and that ignores the state pension,
state second pension, ...
Could you please confirm or deny point 1?
Could you point to the published figure for the last government
accounts (last financial year) for the civil service pension
liabilities?
Yours sincerely,
Nick Leaton
From: FOI, REQUESTS
National Audit Office
13 May 2010
Dear Mr Leaton,
Thank you for your email of 28 April in which you raised some points
regarding the response we sent you relating to our internal review of your
FOI request (reference FOI-418).
I am sorry if any of the points in our response were unclear. In answer
to the specific issues you raise:
1. I can confirm that the NAO does not hold any information specific to
your request, relating to IPSAS25.
At the the time the papers we sent to you were prepared, the Government's
Resource Accounting Manual (now the Financial Reporting Manual ('FReM'))
was based on UK GAAP ASB standards - hence the reference to FRS 17. With
effect from 1 April 2009 the FReM is based on International Financial
Reporting Standards (IFRS) so that the international standard, IAS 19,
which is broadly equivalent to FRS 17 is relevant. This information is
available at: [1]http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/frem_index....
2. Civil service pension liabilities will be published in the Whole of
Government Accounts, the first of which are planned for future publication
by HM Treasury covering financial year 2009-2010. These will be published
by HM Treasury who will decide on the timescale for this.
The Cabinet Office publishes a resource account with an estimate of the
liabilities of The Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme under the title
Cabinet Office: Civil Superannuation Resource Accounts. The 2008-09
account (the most recent available) is at
[2]http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/08....
I hope that this provides the information that you require.
Your sincerely,
Joseph da Silva
FOI Team
National Audit Office
Information Centre
157-197 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 9SP
email: [3][NAO request email]
Tel: +44 (0)20 7798 7264
The information contained in this email, and any files transmitted with
it, is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
Such information may be confidential and privileged, and no mistake in
transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege.
If you have received the email in error, please notify the NAO's Post
Master at mailto: [email address].
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the
presence of computer viruses.
Please visit our website at www.nao.org.uk
show quoted sections
Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or
recorded for legal purposes.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/frem_index...
2. http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/08...
3. mailto:[NAO request email]
From: Nick Leaton
13 May 2010
Dear Joseph,
Thank you for your reply.
Again, I'm rather surprised. As auditors of the government
accounts, I would have thought that the NOA was abreast of any
changes in accounting regulations. Given that IPSAS 25 takes force
in January 2011, it looks like you have your work cut out to get
ready for the change over.
Are you really trying to tell me that you have no plans for the
change over?
Yours sincerely,
Nick Leaton
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