Ideal isar boilers

D. Speers made this Freedom of Information request to Department of Energy and Climate Change

The request was partially successful.

From: D. Speers

25 February 2010

Dear Department of Energy and Climate Change,

Some relevant data has been brought to my attention re the
efficiency of the boilers used by Warmfront installers:
I've also discovered that the so called not so ideal 'Ideal
Isar'has only scored 85% on a boiler efficiency test by a Which?
Review giving it a B rating at best.

Please advise: If this is the case why are these boilers still
being fitted by Warm Front etc. I thought the
Government Central Heating and Boiler Scrappage Scheme Grants
stipulated the use of A rated boilers only. Is this right ?

As for GAIN (Grant Aided Installation Network) they do not
test,recommend or conclude which type of boiler are the most
reliable or efficient as the DECC regularly refer to. They only
collate any information centrally as a reference point from data
sent in from boiler manufactures.
It appears DECC claim the 'recommendations' from GAIN are the
reason they use the Ideal Isar. I've spoken to GAIN directly, they
say they've no idea why the DECC keep claiming GAIN advocate the
Ideal Isar.

1)Is the Ideal Isar rated A or B?
2)What evidence can DECC offer to support their claims re GAIN?
3) How does DECC ensure Eaga is fully compliant with customer
service and complaints policy?

Yours faithfully,

D. Speers

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D. Speers left an annotation (25 February 2010)

I have a letter from Eaga customer service, and it fails to follow up any of the promises made in the letter. The cover letter to MP states "Please find attached a letter dated 13th January from Warmfront assuring me of their attention, allotting me a 'case worker' and telling me that all should be put right within 28 days".
It is now the 22nd Feb and after me making several attempts to communicate with them to no avail, the time has now passed. I have never heard from the 'case worker' and I would appreciate your further intervention or advise me as to my next course of action."

Nothing done re:
Response Time
Contact from case worker
Keep MP (stakeholder) informed.
Customer has contact with an independent heating contractor but has been advised by Warmfront, unregistered installers cannot be used.

If you have a Warmfront story then send it to the DECC Select Committee in Parliament for their oral evidence session on Fuel Poverty on 3rd March.
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_c...

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From: FOI Requests

26 February 2010

BIS ref: 10/0386

Dear D Speers,

Thank you for your request for information which was received on 25
February. Your request has been passed on to the appropriate official at
the Department of Energy and Climate Change to deal with.

Best wishes,

Kay

Kay Wilson | Freedom of Information Advisor | Information Rights Unit |
Department for Business, Innovation & Skills | Bay 351, 66-74 Victoria
Street, London, SW1E 6SW | [1]www.bis.gov.uk

The Department for Business, Innovation & Skills (BIS) is building a
dynamic and competitive UK economy by creating the conditions for business
success; promoting innovation, enterprise and science; and giving everyone
the skills and opportunities to succeed. To achieve this we will foster
world-class universities and promote an open global economy. BIS -
Investing in our future

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From: D. Speers

26 February 2010

Dear FOI Requests,

Many thanks for your prompt acknowledgment. I appreciate your time.

Yours sincerely,

D. Speers

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From: Oliver Alison (Misc)
Department of Energy and Climate Change

25 March 2010

Attachment No AttachName.bmp
16K Download

Our Ref: 10/0386

Dear D Speers

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request dated 25^th February
2010, asking the following:

1. Does the Government Central Heating and Boiler Scrappage Grant
stipulate the use of A rated boilers only?
2. Is the Ideal Isar boiler rated A or B?
3. As stated in a Which? Review on boiler efficiencies, if the Ideal Isar
does not meet the criteria for it to be an A rated boiler why are
these boilers being fitted by Warm Front?
4. What evidence can DECC offer to support their claims re GAIN?
5. How does DECC ensure Eaga is fully compliant with customer service and
complaints policy?

The Boiler Scrappage Scheme stipulates that if the replacement boiler is
gas or oil, it must be an A rated boiler. The scheme rules are published
at:

[1]http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home...

This is different to the Warm Front Scheme. The Warm Front Scheme
stipulates that where gas, oil or LPG fired boilers are installed in
existing dwellings by Warm Front installers, boilers with a SEDBUK
efficiency equal to or in excess of 86% (i.e. Band A or B) must be used
unless there are exceptional circumstances that makes this impractical or
too costly.

The Ideal Isar boiler is used by Warm Front installers at present and is
rated in Band A under the DEFRA/SEDBUK Scheme, as shown on the following
link:

[2]http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.c...

The SEDBUK grading is calculated using specified equations from results
obtained from extensive testing carried out by a Notified Body in response
to a request by the manufacturer, in this case Ideal, for certificated
approval to the Boiler Efficiency Directive (BED). The Notified Body is
appointed by the Government to certify products and production methods
which conform to the European Gas Appliance and Boiler Efficiency
Directives. Such certification is a legal requirement prior to the supply
of most gas products within the EU.

The Which? report on boilers (01 November 2007) refutes the figures from
the Notified Body and claims a much lower SEDBUK figure for the Ideal
Isar.

According to Ideal, the report does not make clear what efficiency figure
has been used in the measurements or how it was measured, although the
report infers that the figure is a calculated SEDBUK figure. Ideal state
that the figure quoted by Which? for the Isar boiler is too low to be
within the boundaries of experimental error and may be explained by a
difference in the method used to test the boilers and calculate the
efficiency rating.

The boilers used under the Warm Front Scheme were selected in 2005 based
on recommendations from Eaga, the Warm Front Scheme manager, to DEFRA, the
Government Department with responsibility for Warm Front prior to the
creation of Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) in 2008,
supported by GAIN.

Under the Warm Front Scheme, there is a process in place to handle
Customer complaints. Part of the complaint handling process includes
monthly meetings between DECC and Eaga to review the complaints received
and information collected, discussing specific cases and reviewing Key
Performance Indicators (KPI's) relating to Upheld complaints. If Eaga
fail to meet the target KPI in terms of customer complaints upheld they
are liable to pay the department for their failure.

Over the past two years there has not been a failure by Eaga to meet the
KPI of no more than 0.6% of upheld complaints in any given month. For
further assurance DECC engage White Young Green (WYG) as Independent
Quality Assessors to audit Eaga's processes, make calls to customers and
send letters to enquire on the level of customer service received. It is
DECCs view, based on the reports and feedback from WYG that Eaga have been
meeting the required minimum standards and KPIs. In their October 2009
report WYG reported that the level of customer satisfaction has continued
to be maintained, with 90% of customer feedback confirming satisfaction
with the Scheme.

Appeal Procedure

If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the
right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be
submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your
original letter and should be addressed to the Department.

Please remember to quote the reference number above in any future
communications.

If you are not content with the outcome of the internal review, you have
the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a
decision. The Information Commissioner can be contacted at: Information
Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9
5AF

Kind Regards

Alison

Alison Oliver

Warm Front Policy

Household Energy Efficiency and Fuel Poverty Division

Department of Energy and Climate Change
Zone 1d, 3 Whitehall Place, London, SW1A 2AW

Email: [3][email address]

[4]Picture (Device Independent Bitmap)

References

Visible links
1. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home...
2. http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.c...
3. mailto:[email address]

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B. Stanton left an annotation (26 March 2010)

I utterly refute the figure that Eaga/Warmfront satisfy 90% of customer complaints.

I have been complaining about the way I have been treated when they badly fitted a boiler for my disabled daughter last November and after many, many phone calls and letters of complaint etc it is nearly April and the matter has still not been rectified.

I will be contacting White, Green, Young to see what they can do for me.
Barbara

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amar left an annotation (27 March 2010)

Dear All,
This is a Warning.
The Ideal range of boilers are a poor make compared to other makes The ideals having no relibality at all.
The Isar is a complete and utter failure.
No engineer would reccomend an ideal boiler especially an Isar.
It seems quite clear that the scheme has been set up to promote this poor make and it is being provided to those in society who have no voice. This group of people being poor, elderly and disabled will not know any difference.
No one seems to want to clarify the facts regards the situation.
We need to set up an inquiry to look into why these boilers are being provided which are on the whole unreliable and constantly breakdown.
Alternatively the government should provide a 5-7 year guarantee for all customers so as to ensure that customers don't have to pay out considerable amounts in call outs and /or replacement of the boiler.

The Ideal boilers will obviously be very problematic for any customer and will have to be replaced fairy soon in its life...

Is this what we want for Warm Front customers..??

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Paul of the Woods Family left an annotation (20 April 2010)

Our Ideal boiler was fitted in Feb 2008, developed a leak the next day, engineer fixed it.

Jan 2010, engineer came out to "service" the boiler, it didnt work from then on, water was luke warm then cold.

Same engineer came out said there was nothing wrong and it was a "water pressure" problem. But it still didnt give us hot water.

Another engineer came out and fitted a new part, worked ok for a few weeks, then same thing happened,no hot water.

On phoning warmfront, was told the 2 year guarantee was up and we would have to pay £240 for an engineer to fix it.

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D. Speers left an annotation (20 April 2010)

Sorry to hear about your situation Paul......you will have to contact MP in new Parliament. Dept of Energy and Climate Change is the Government Dept and there is a Select Committee: http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_c...

Always keep a list of all names, dates, times and conversations.....then get your MP to chase things on your behalf!
The contact info I have is:'Lisa Hodges (Customer Management)Lisa.Hodges@eaga.com
Presumably all Eaga workers will have a similar email layout!
Good luck
Dee

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D. Speers left an annotation (12 November 2010)

Can anyone open this?
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wa...

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Michael K. Davies left an annotation (21 December 2010)

Following you will find just some of our many email communications regarding an Ideal isar central heating boiler system. It does not reflect the hours of time we have spent on the telephone getting nowhere.

Tuesday, 21 December, 2010 11:11:45RE: Broken down Central Heating System
From: Customer Management <customer.management@eaga.com>View
To: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your email.

We will endeavour to respond to your email within two working days.
However, if your enquiry is urgent, please contact our Customer Service
Centre on 0800 316 6011.

With best regards

Tuesday, 21 December, 2010 11:11:43Broken down Central Heating System
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: customer.management@eaga.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs,

Yesterday I had cause to send emailed letters of complaint to my local Tamworth MP, Mr Christopher Pincher, and BBC Watchdog concerning the failures of a central heating system installed under the Warmfront scheme in March of this year.

The last engineer who visited our home, Monday 13th December, said that a part was faulty and that a replacement part had to be ordered but would take 5 days to obtain. It is now 21st December and no communication has been received from the installers to inform us when this part will be obtained and installed in our heating system.

Why are parts not readily available and kept in stock for a modern, supposedly efficient, newly installed central heating system?

I suspect that the equipment is an obsolete out of date ineffecient system that has been superseeded and we have had this obsolete system installed in order to clear old stock. Someone is being well paid to pass this ineficiency on to the unsuspecting public.

It is my intention now to pass our story on to all the National Daily Newspapers at 12 Noon today.

The reasons I now send this email is that either: 1. We cannot make contact with who we need to by phone because no one answers, or 2. When we finally get someone on the phone, they cannot give answers and only say it is not their responsibility and swiftly suggest we phone soneone else.

Our postcode is B77 5NT
Our name is Davies

If at all you are interested.

Michael K. Davies

Monday, 20 December, 2010 11:53:21Freezing in our home this winter
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr Pincher,

In 2009 I became redundant and at the age then of 63. I then could not get find an opportunity to get myself back into work.

The Tamworth Job centre advised me to apply for pension credit. This I did with success.

Because our then central heating boiler had been condemed and shut down by British Gas, we were informed that, as part of being on pension credit, we could apply for a Government backed scheme that funding would be found for a new central heating system through Warmfront.

In March of this year our funded central heating system was installed. Coming as it did at the start of the warmer Spring and Summer months, we had no cause to use the heating system.

At the start of the present cold spell, perhaps some two months ago, we felt the need to utilise our new system to warm our house and provide hot water. Almost immediately our problems stated.

In the past 8 weeks we have had four engineers call to fix problems with the system. The last engineer found that a valve/switch was faulty and that a new one would have to be ordered in, a process taking 5 days. We have now been without heating for 10 days during this period.

On a previous engineers visit, he informed us that the boiler would not fire because it was FROZEN !!!!!

Over the past few days we have found out that even British Gas will not touch the make of boiler that we have installed.

The last engineer who called, to look at our heating problem, told us that his Comany (a contracter to Warmsure) had stopped using this same make of boiler on their own non-contracted work.

We have found other householders now who have also had similar problems as ourselves with this same make of boiler .

What use is a central heating system that does not work when the winter weather is so cold?

Why are parts not readily available for central heating system during the winter?

Why are these installation organisations being allowed to fit what we now consider to be obsolete boiler central heating systems, and particularly when they are Government funded.

Someone, somewhere is taking this money under false pretencies and should not be allowed to continue to do so.

Our Household consists of:

Myself aged 63
My wife, aged 59 and suffering with arthritic pain
Our 26 year old daughter who has special needs having Downs Syndrome
My Wife's Father who is aged 64 years

As you can I hope see, we do need our heating.

Our address is:
46 Sandpiper
Wilnecote
Tamworth
Staffs
B77 5NT

Telephone: 01827 728534

We trust and hope that you will be able to assist ourselves with this problem.

Thanking you with all our best wishes

Yours Sincerely
Michael. K. Davies

Monday, 20 December, 2010 11:46:40This Email address has changed
From: "christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk" <christopher.pincher@tamworthconservatives.co.uk>View
To: michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Thank you for your email. Unfortunatley, this email address is no longer in use and your mail has been re-directed to the new address. If you are a constituent, please send all future emails to christopher.pincher.mp@parliament.uk.

Monday, 20 December, 2010 13:25:51Freezing in our home this winter
From: MICHAEL DAVIES <michael.k.davies95@btinternet.com>Add to Contacts
To: watchdog@bbc.co.uk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Watchdog

Please find following a copy of an email I have today sent to my local MP, Mr Christopher Pincher, concerning the efforts and fob-offs we have had to contend with concerning an heating system provided by the Government funded Warmfront/Warmsure.

Dear Mr Pincher,

In 2009 I became redundant and at the age then of 63. I then could not get find an opportunity to get myself back into work.

The Tamworth Job centre advised me to apply for pension credit. This I did with success.

Because our then central heating boiler had been condemed and shut down by British Gas, we were informed that, as part of being on pension credit, we could apply for a Government backed scheme that funding would be found for a new central heating system through Warmfront.

In March of this year our funded central heating system was installed. Coming as it did at the start of the warmer Spring and Summer months, we had no cause to use the heating system.

At the start of the present cold spell, perhaps some two months ago, we felt the need to utilise our new system to warm our house and provide hot water. Almost immediately our problems stated.

In the past 8 weeks we have had four engineers call to fix problems with the system. The last engineer found that a valve/switch was faulty and that a new one would have to be ordered in, a process taking 5 days. We have now been without heating for 10 days during this period.

On a previous engineers visit, he informed us that the boiler would not fire because it was FROZEN !!!!!

Over the past few days we have found out that even British Gas will not touch the make of boiler that we have installed.

The last engineer who called, to look at our heating problem, told us that his Comany (a contracter to Warmsure) had stopped using this same make of boiler on their own non-contracted work.

We have found other householders now who have also had similar problems as ourselves with this same make of boiler .

What use is a central heating system that does not work when the winter weather is so cold?

Why are parts not readily available for central heating system during the winter?

Why are these installation organisations being allowed to fit what we now consider to be obsolete boiler central heating systems, and particularly when they are Government funded.

Someone, somewhere is taking this money under false pretencies and should not be allowed to continue to do so.

Our Household consists of:

Myself aged 63
My wife, aged 59 and suffering with arthritic pain
Our 26 year old daughter who has special needs having Downs Syndrome
My Wife's Father who is aged 64 years

As you can I hope see, we do need our heating.

Our address is:
46 Sandpiper
Wilnecote
Tamworth
Staffs
B77 5NT

Telephone: 01827 728534

We trust and hope that you will be able to assist ourselves with this problem.

Thanking you with all our best wishes

Yours Sincerely
Michael. K. Davies

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brian tomlin left an annotation (17 March 2011)

MR tomlin ie boiler fited november 2010 ideal logic combi 30 from warm front january 2011 boiler leaked on to washing machine ideal came out to fix it they are refusing to pay for new washing machine despite senting them proof ie photos of water from boiler on washing machine then yesterday the 16.3 2011 it leaked again if you are having new boiler for god sake make sure they dont give you one from ideal

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andrew left an annotation ( 6 October 2011)

Plz can some 1 tell me the user control on the boiler doz not work will it be the primary control {PUB}

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