Fractional Reserve Lending

J Hoontrakul made this Freedom of Information request to Her Majesty’s Treasury

The request was partially successful.

From: J Hoontrakul

7 September 2009

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been doing research on the banking system and I have several
questions.

I have been doing research on the banking system and I have several
questions.

1.The UK banking system operates under the Fractional Reserve
model, is this correct? If not what system/model is used?

2.What is the fractional reserve that is being used at this time?

3.As I understand the system the banks only need to keep in reserve
the fraction that is required of the. For example if the fraction
required is 1/10 or 10% for each £1 that the bank holds in reserve
it can lend out £9. Is this correct? If not what are the rules for
lending money? (Please note that for the following questions I will
be using the 1/10 or 10% as an example as it is the easiest when
speaking on this matter)

4.The reserves are kept by the bank in the form of a deposit to the
bank of England. Is this correct? If not please specify where the
banks keep its reserves?

5.This means that if a deposit of £100 is made, the bank can keep
£10 in reserve and lend out £90. Is this correct? If not what is
the amount that the banks can lend out?

6.If my understanding of the previous question is correct it also
means that the bank can hold the full £100 in reserve and lend out
£900. Is this correct?

7.Because the banks uses this system(Fractional Reserve Lending)
the £900 lent out is simply created by the bank as an entry in the
records or books. Is this correct? If not where does the £900 come
from?

8. If people, companies and the government use this system to fund
mortgages, business and services then it can be said the a
substantial (if not all) of the money in circulation was created
out of nothing more than an entry into the system. Is this correct?

9.If my understanding of the previous question is correct then a
substantial (if not all) of the money in circulation was created as
debt that must be paid back to the banks, and the bank charges
interest on the money that it loans out. But if the bank only
creates the principle where does the money to pay back the interest
comes from?

10.As the loans are paid back the money that was created is
destroyed or cancelled out. This means that the banks must keep
lending otherwise the supply of money disappears. Is this correct?

11.The more the banks lend the greater the amount of money in
circulation and the greater the inflation. Is this correct?

12.If the banks do not make loans the amount of money in
circulation decreases and therefore there is a deflation. Is this
correct?

13.The government does not create money it borrows it and as such,
needs to pay interest on the amount borrowed. Is this correct?

14.Taxes on the people is one of the ways that government generates
revenue, what is the percentage of taxes that go towards paying
debt services or the interest on money that the government has
borrowed?

15.The government borrows more money (which it also must pay back
with interest) to pay the already existing interest that it owes.
Is this correct? If not how does the interest get paid?

16.If my understanding if the two previous questions is correct
then it is impossible to pay back both the principle and the
interest that the government owes. Also if taxes goes towards the
repayment of the debt then it is nothing more than a form of
slavery for the people of the UK. Is this not correct?

Yours faithfully and without prejudice,

J Hoontrakul.

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From: Enquiries, CEU
Her Majesty’s Treasury

9 September 2009

Dear Mr Hoontrakul,

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request. I write to confirm receipt of your request and to let you know that it is receiving attention. If you have any enquiries regarding your request do not hesitate to contact us.

Darren Creamer
Correspondence and Enquiry Unit

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Mark left an annotation (26 September 2009)

Dear Mr Creamer,

From your lack of response thus far, it would seem that Mr Hoontrakul - as has many many more people - have finally started to appreciate what is going on and how the con of fractional reserve banking works.
I, as I am sure Mr Hoontrakul is also, am looking forward to your response on this matter.

Sincerely,
Mark

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From: J Hoontrakul

3 October 2009

Dear Enquiries, CEU,

Darren Creamer,

As I understand it you have until the 5th of October 2009 to reply
to my questions. After that you are in violation of the Freedom Of
Information act.

I demand answers to my questions and it is your duty to answer
them. If you do not supply the answers by Monday the 5th of October
2009 and the days that follow, I will be reminding you at regular
intervals of you failure to do your duty until you answer these
questions.

I will also be circulating this question and your failure to answer
widely on the internet. I only ask that you do your duty.

Yours sincerely and without prejudice,

J Hoontrakul

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From: J Hoontrakul

6 October 2009

Dear Enquiries, CEU,

Mr. Darren Creamer,

You are now officially in violation of the Freedom Of Information
act. Do you need more time? Are you unable to answer my question?
Please respond with the reason for your lack of response.

Yours sincerely and without prejudice,

J Hoontrakul

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J Hoontrakul left an annotation ( 8 October 2009)

So what do I do now? No reply, no request for more time, nothing. Asking for an internal review seems to be the only option. However, this usually ends in some rubbish technicality and no real answers. Any suggestions?

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Mr. David Kenyon left an annotation ( 9 October 2009)

Complain to the Data Commisioner?

Don't know the protocol for non-response.

Silence speaks volumes though....

Nice FOI. Saved me having to write a similar one. :)

Peace.

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Mr. David Kenyon left an annotation ( 9 October 2009)

This will give you the next steps then:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/help/unhappy

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From: J Hoontrakul

9 October 2009

Dear Mr. Creamer and whom this may concern,

Day four of your violation, I now request and require a legal
reason for your failure to promptly respond with either the answers
to my questions or a reason for your complete disregard of your
duties as a public servant.

Do you suggest that I make an internal review request? Do you need
more time? Regardless a response would be appreciated.

Yours sincerely and without prejudice,

J Hoontrakul

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Norman: Hinks left an annotation (10 October 2009)

Great FOI Request.

without giving any legal advice ;-), the procedure from my understanding (correct me anyone?) is :

1) request an internal review
2) approach the Commissioner under section 50 for a decision
3) The Commissioner can issue an Information & or Enforcement notices
4) Court proceedings

From my reading of the FOI act,The offence committed if proven under section 54 is 'contempt of court',

however section 56(1) does state
'This Act does not confer any right of action in civil proceedings in respect of any failure to comply with any duty imposed by or under this Act'

Which I take as only the commissioner only can bring enforcement action.

Norman: Hinks
non assumpsit - without prejudice

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Joseph Keogh left an annotation (10 October 2009)

We are fast approaching the point where the silence, mandelson-like spin and obfuscation will attempt to divert this line of inquiry, and so many others like it, towards the bureaucratic brick wall in the condescending belief that those who seek a clear and reasoned answer will just simply give up.

I urge all those of us who know what is going on here, to keep hold of their conviction. What has been perpetrated upon the British people and the western world is nothing more than government sponsored fraud. A practice so devious that it has caused millions to suffer in misery at the behest of the elite few. An elite who are more than likely ignorant of what their forefathers have instigated and, I am sure, who would be in total agreement that, somehow in some way, steps need to be taken to correct this.

I fully expect that no clear and reasoned answers will be forthcoming because, quite simply, they are none. In this instance I urge all of us who are petitioning the Treasury/Bank of England with similar queries, to pursue.
To request an internal review, make representations to the Commissioner and finally petitioning the PM.

Yours Sincerely

J Keogh

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From: responses, FOI
Her Majesty’s Treasury

12 October 2009


Attachment FOI 9 769.txt
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Attachment 9769.pdf
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Dear J Hoontrakul,

I am sorry to hear that you did not receive your reply. The reply was sent by email from HM Treasury to the Whatdotheyknow website on the 5 October.

For your convenience I have attached that email again.

Could you please confirm receipt.

<<FOI 9/769>>

Information Rights Unit
HM Treasury, 2SW, 1 Horse Guards Road, SW1A 2HQ

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
www.hm-treasury.gov.uk

Original Message-----
From: J Hoontrakul [mailto:[FOI #17765 email]]
Sent: 06 October 2009 13:17
To: Enquiries, CEU
Subject: Re: Freedom of Information request - Fractional Reserve Lending

Dear Enquiries, CEU,

Mr. Darren Creamer,

You are now officially in violation of the Freedom Of Information
act. Do you need more time? Are you unable to answer my question?
Please respond with the reason for your lack of response.

Yours sincerely and without prejudice,

J Hoontrakul

show quoted sections

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From: Enquiries, CEU
Her Majesty’s Treasury

12 October 2009

Dear Mr Hoontrakul,

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request. I write to confirm receipt of your request and to let you know that it is receiving attention. If you have any enquiries regarding your request do not hesitate to contact us.

Darren Creamer
Correspondence and Enquiry Unit

show quoted sections

Link to this

Mark left an annotation (13 October 2009)

When trying to open the attachment, it seems to have a broken link. Can you please remedy that?

Thanks.

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J Hoontrakul left an annotation (13 October 2009)

The link does not work, I have notified WhatDoTheyKnow and they are looking into the matter. Apparently, according to WhatDoTheyKnow, Treasury/HMRC has claimed to have sent a response that was never received.

They state that there has been a communication/technical problem where some responses are sent and are not getting through. I will keep trying to get answers to my questions.

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From: responses, FOI
Her Majesty’s Treasury

12 October 2009


Attachment 9769.pdf
598K Download View as HTML

Attachment attachment.txt
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Dear J Hoontrakul,

I am sorry to hear that you did not receive your reply. The reply was
sent by email from HM Treasury to the Whatdotheyknow website on the 5
October.

For your convenience I have attached that email again.

Please find attached our reply to your FoI request.

Regards,

Information Rights Unit
HM Treasury

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Richard Taylor left an annotation (19 October 2009)

I reformatted the latest email on this request so that our system can recognise the attachment.

--

Richard - WhatDoTheyKnow.com volunteer

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From: J Hoontrakul

19 October 2009

Dear responses, FOI,

In your response you state that "Most of the questions you have
asked do not constitute requests for recorded information."

Just to be sure that I have not misunderstood this statement. I
would like to confirm the following from you as an official source
for future publication:

1. HM Treasury has no record of the current banking model/system
that is the basis of the UK's economy.

2. HM Treasury does not have on record how the banking system
works.

3. HM Treasury does not have on record how money is created, where
it comes from and where it goes when a debt is paid.

4. HM Treasury does not have on record the percentage of taxes that
go towards paying debt services or the interest on money that the
government has borrowed.

As for your answers, I am afraid that they are not good enough.
They do not answer my questions.

I did not ask whether the government has managed to reduce the
percentage of the GDP that is national debt. I asked "what is the
percentage of taxes that go towards paying debt services or the
interest on money that the government has borrowed". May I also say
that 36% of the GDP is debt is nothing to be proud of.

As for the the government achieving its "Golden Fiscal Rule" which
you kindly point out means "the government did not borrow to fund
current(i.e. day-to-day) expenditure, including debt interest
costs". This still means that the "day-to-day" and "interest costs"
can be funded by tax and everything else by borrowing, is this not
correct? Because if it is, it just means that the amount of
interest now owed on the "non-day-to-day" borrowing will accumulate
and the percentage of debt in relation to the GDP will just rise
again in the future.

I have asked relatively simple questions, pointing me to the 2009
budget report does not constitute an answer, nor does referring me
to the index page for a website.

So this time I do expect answers or a confirmation that HM Treasury
does not have the information on record for each of my questions in
itemised form. Considering that many of the questions can be
answered with a simple yes
or an explanation, a short concise one if possible. Otherwise I
have no choice but to make an internal review.

Yours sincerely,

J Hoontrakul

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Francis Irving left an annotation (21 October 2009)

Just to say that there was indeed a bug in the WhatDoTheyKnow code, to do with showing attachments in forwarded emails.

I've fixed it now, so some of the confusion above shouldn't happen again!

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Mark left an annotation ( 5 November 2009)

Mr Hoontrakul,

Please follow up with treasury and ask that they respond to the following:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa...

I believe they may have "forgotten" or decided to omit the fact that the issue has been brought to the treasury's attention already and that it is on record within the Treasury and House of Commons.

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From: J Hoontrakul

7 November 2009

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been pointed to
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa...
by a member of the public. It concerns many of the questions I have
asked, do you still maintain that the questions I have asked are
not valid questions?

Yours faithfully,

J Hoontrakul

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From: responses, FOI

17 November 2009


Attachment foi hoo.pdf
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Please find attached our response to your recent enquiries.

Paul Morran | Information Rights Unit | 2/SW, 1 Horse Guards Road, SW1A 2HQ

www.hm-treasury.gov.uk

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

<<foi-hoo.pdf>>

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If you have received this email and it was not intended for you,
please let us know, and then delete it. Please treat our
information in confidence, as you would expect us to treat yours.

All Treasury information systems may be monitored to ensure
that they are operating correctly. Furthermore, the content of
emails and other data on these systems may be examined,
in exceptional circumstances, for the purpose of investigating
or detecting any unauthorised use.

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From: J Hoontrakul

18 November 2009

Dear responses, FOI, Paul Morran

Thank you for your response. It has been very helpful.

Yours sincerely,

J Hoontrakul

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Joseph Keogh left an annotation (25 November 2009)

Mr Morran's explanation is eloquent enough in describing the requirement of fractional reserve lending as providing a social utility.

However if we are to accept this, then we are accepting a contradiction in English Law on the matter of contracts ...or it maybe said that Law of the land (Law Lords, Government etc ..incorporate who or what you will) turns a blind eye to the financial institutions in this country who flagrantly disregard this law.

Put simply, bank repossessions of any assets purchased 'with the proceeds of a loan' are illegal as the 'agreements/contracts' drawn up between a bank and its customer are not valid under English Law.

A contract is an agreement between two parties by which both are bound by law and which can therefore be enforced in a court. Contracts are distinguished from 'agreements', which are not binding, and from 'promises', which are enforceable but unilateral.

For a contract to be legally valid, both parties must give 'consideration'. This is a very important point. Consideration is 'quid pro quo' - something in return for something else. One party agrees to do something and the other party agrees to 'something else'. In the context of a loan agreement, a customer's consideration is the promise to pay the bank with interest. Consideration from the bank is the creditation of the customer account with the agreed sum.

The rules of 'consideration' say that 'Consideration need not be adequate' - it is not for the law to say whether a contract was a fair one, most importantly, however, 'Consideration must be sufficient' - this has a precise legal meaning in that:

a) Consideration is sufficient if it is real.
b) Consideration is sufficient if it is tangible.
c) Consideration is sufficient if it has discernible value.

When applying to a bank for a mortgage, one 'accepts' the bank's 'offer' of a mortgage, and sign's the papers that seal the contract. You give 'consideration' in the form of the promise to pay back the sum, with interest, and the bank credits your account for the agreed sum. The credit to the account of this sum is the 'consideration' given by the bank in the contract, but from what we know of the fractional reserve system, the money is created out of nothing.

Since the rules of consideration specifically state that 'consideration is sufficient if it is real', as soon as one sign's the contract at the bank, the bank has breached the contract by 'insufficient consideration'. The money, which never existed in the first place, is 'not real'!

So from Mr Morran's view point we must lie down and accept that the banks can commit government endorsed larceny in return that it provides a social utility.

Methinks not Mr Morran. I do not believe anyone with any modicum of decency and justice would accept this, maybe not even you Mr Morran.

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J Hoontrakul left an annotation (25 November 2009)

Joseph Keogh,

You are absolutely right. I am also looking in to this. Thank you.

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Gary Payne left an annotation (30 March 2010)

Mate,

You are asking some excellent questions and I for one would like an honest and straight up answer.

I am thinking though that you are asking the wrong body. The request should be to the Financial Services Authority (FSA), as I thought they directly regulate the private banks and set their operating regulatory framework.

The BOE is I believe in theory separate from private bank operations.

Cheers,

Gary Payne

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