authority for the royal military police to 'police' in mainland uk

John you sound bitter, ex squaddie perhaps, it would seem you do not have any faith in the RMP, please explain why you dislike them so much, would you rather have Civpol deal with the many criminal investigations that are handled on a week to week basis? Per year this goes into the thousands! CivPol would not be happy with that.
Quick cuffs and batons are authorised by the Sec of State. We are now subject to the NPIA and ACPO although not home Office force. And are regulated by PACE.
With regards to jurisdiction, WE CAN deal with and arrest civilians if needed, under Sec 24 PACE 1984 and we can also arrest WITHOUT warrant civilians in the UK for committing offences under the Military Lands Acts 1976 as amended Dec 08, or if we have reasonable grounds to believe them to be a Serviceman.

I wait with baited breath for the reply...Tony

Mr Randall

You might like to contact the Royal Military Police at Southwick Park, near Portsmouth.

I am sure they will be more than happy to deal with your request.

Alternatively, try the Provost Marshal (Army) at Upavon.

You will find his address by doing a simple search on the internet.

These people will be able to help you answer the questions:

Headquarters Provost Marshal (Army)
Trenchard Lines
Upavon, Pewsey,
Wiltshire
SN9 6BE

Just so you don't sound ignorant in future correspondance... You do not need 'authority' to carry handcuffs. Any member of the public could carry handcuffs if they wanted to. They are not an offensive weapon or prohibited article. With regards to carrying batons the defences are lawful authority or reasonable excuse. Due to the nature of police work (whether military or civilian) there would be health and safety implications not to allow officers the means to defend themselves. I'm sure the officer safety risk assesments for frontline officers explains this and authority has been granted for this very reason. As I cannot recall the last time an RMP went on a batoning rampage around the streets of England or Wales I fail to see your concerns. Where I live and work we have many forces: ports police, civil nuclear constabulary, british transport police, military police as well as usual civilian home office forces. All carry PPE, some including firearms, and noone has any concerns. I hope you axe is suitably sharp and you can be satisfied

John,
I fully understand where you are coming from and the concern that the apparently unregulated Service Police are policing our local communities. While there have been many adverse comments regarding traffic warning equipment (blue lights and sirens) as well as the carrying of PPE (batons and handcuffs), I believe the most important question you are asking is who regulates the RMP (and for that matter other service police organisations such as the RAF and RN Police)? May I suggest that the most recent publication available publicly is Home Office Circular 028/2008 A Protocol Between Police Forces and The Ministry of Defence Police. This protocol replaced previous publications (24/2002) and now includes the Service Police. This HOC quite clearly states that they do not have civil constabulary powers and exercise jurisdiction over personnel subject to the Service Discipline Act (SDA).
What may interest you most is that the HO recognise that even though there may be no jurisdiction, the service police could be first on the scene. In these circumstances it would be prudent for them to take immediate necessary action and later handing over to the HO police. Speaking as a member of the public, I would personally be quite happy for a service police officer to assist a member of my family who was a victim, regardless of who eventually investigated the offence later.
Ultimately, the chief constable is responsible for crime within his/her area, but this may be with the co-operation of other policing organisations. Service Police are not subject to the Police Discipline Regulations or to review by the IPCC, so the guidance you have already been given about contacting the PM(A) at Upavon would be a sensible course of action.

John, It might help us all if you provide the reasons for your concern, please. I am a retired member of both the RMP and the civil police and I can say quite clearly that the two organisations work closely and well in those environments/towns where service personnel are stationed and where military establishments are at risk. You will note too that RMP carry out important training tasks in conflict zones, having lost another two members today whilst training the Afghan civil police. Proportionately, the RMP lose a greater number of staff in conflict zones than most other units of the UK forces. They are professionally trained law enforcement officers who act on behalf of the people of this nation, often in very difficult circumstances. The hierarchy of the UK police and of the UK Government know where the boundaries lie between civil and military policing so, might I suggest that you take some of the advice offered earlier and write to the organisations named, please? Clearly, you need answers but this site is not going to provide fully qualified answers. Rgds Derek B

As an Ex Military Policeman and now a Police officer on civvy street, I can say both jobs are identical and both carry same risks, and if im honest RMP training in law and policing is second to none and was far more in depth than my civilian police training therefore making them professional in their job and if you ask me should be a recognised police service with jurisdiction on civvy street. The person posing the question in the first place obviously had a bad career in the army and has been in the back of an RMP car far too many times.

RIP our fallen Comrades

The more police on the streets, MOD, RMP or Area Constabulary the better.

Lee Welden (Staff Sergeant, RMP)
Mr Randall, if you were the unfortunate individual or perhaps a member of your family to be a victim of a violent crime. would you prefer for an RMP officer who may be the first on scene not to act against the suspect or individual? i think not! would you also prefer for example for a person who is heavily under the influence of alcohol to carry on driving a vehicle potentially placing civilians in a life threatening situation? or to be stopped by a marked RMP vehicle?

As a civilian I have lived in Aldershot all my life and have nothing but respect for the RMP,like all British regiments or corps engaged in foreign conflicts, the RMP serve our country valiantly in addition to contributing to good policing in my local area. I can understand why Mr Randell has raised this question (point of law) and clearly he is chasing answers for his profession, but i think a wider issue should be raised as a consequence of the initial question. If the RMP do not possess statutory policing powers - then why not?, if our armed forces are good enough to aid policing in other countries why shouldn't they have more input and wider powers in the UK. Lets face it....UK Policing can do with as much help as possible to tackle crime!

and talking on a point of law, with regard to a minor issue raised earlier in this thread, an extendable baton can not be counted as PPE under H&S legislation. This is covered in The PPE at work regulations 1992 were regulation 4 does not apply, as this is exempt under section 1(4) of the Prevention of Crime act 1953.

Sadly, yet another soldier from RMP has died in Helmand- what an aptly named place this is becoming. This time, it appears he was hit by so-called 'friendly fire'. No matter where the rounds came from, he was in a dangerous place defending this country's interests and he has paid a high price. My condolences go to his family, his friends, his colleagues and to the RMP. He will not be the last to suffer. To question the authority by which the Redcap walks the streets of Britain surely is rather fatuous in these troubled times? We should be proud in the extreme to have him amongst us.

Mac198
Mr Randell
Policing is policing the uniform may be different but the crimes are the same and so are the victims, having served in the Royal Military Police and home and abroad for nearly 26 years I can assure you if you have been raped or assaulted you would be more than happy to see the arrival of professionally trained and disciplined Military Police Officers. I have had the privilege to serving with some fine individuals who have carried out counter terrorism operations, close protection duties, investigated some of the most despicable crimes know to man and then when their country has called on them changed uniforms and fought and died to protect your freedom speech and your entitlement to question those who choose to serve.

From my initial FoI request with regards the legality of the Royal Military Police to utilise emergency equipment and various authorities in mainland UK, it would appear, as was expected, for some individuals to go off on a tangent and start explaining the professionalism of the RMP.
My FoI request was specific and I am pleased to state that I have now received the information that I required.
I do not intend to reply directly to the comments on this site, as the authors, in the main appear to be either serving or ex RMP and therefore, understandably are rather biased with their views.
However, the facts remain that the RMP are not sworn in as UK Police Constables, are unaccountable to any policing authority and are not subject to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
I am not questioning the role, or the professionalism of the RMP, outside UK jurisdiction.
What I am questioning, (and possibly the Attorney General may well request an independent review) and will continue to question, is the legality of the their role in mainland UK.
Thank you all for your replies. John RANDALL.

Dear John, Your exercise in seeking answers to your questions was itself based on bias - I note this section of your original note that started this succession of replies: 'with the introduction of the armed forces act in november 2009 they
apparently will be able to deal with murder and rape in mainland uk, surely after there (sic) total incompetance at deepcut this decision
must be reviewed?

Competence is not related directly to 'authority', if it was, then there are many doctors, nurses, lorry drivers, car drivers, pilots..... who today would be acting without authority.

M Bain

Mr Randall,

You state that at no point did you question the professionalism of the RMP yet are very quick to criticise their dealing of the Deepcut enquiry - may I just ask, what authority or knowledge gives you the right to so much as comment on that particular scenerio, have you also submitted a FOI request to Surrey Police on their handling of said job?

You appear to be very quick to criticise and be pedant on points of law such as carrying PPE. Please could you enlighten us all as to what this request is in fact assisting you with? Do you seek to have the RMP removed from our streets? 999 to HantsPol - 15 minutes for a grade one. RMP emergency call - 3 minutes. You do the maths!

I would also like to point out the the RMP (SIB) are in fact subject to HMIC Inpection, again you can gain further details on this from PM(A).

Hi all

I have read all the comments with interest. I myself served for several years with the RMP in different theatres including the UK. Again even then, which was some 19 years ago it was the same argument, why blue lights, sirens etc. In fact I can recall having to put sock type covers over the blue lights. I have since joined the civil police and have dealt with numerous incidents over the years. I have to say to be honest that the training that I received with the RMP in relation to PACE, rules of evidence etc was second to none. Yes I received further training when I later joined the civil police however it wasn't covered to the same degree.

This is an argument which has dragged on for years and it is beyond me why steps haven,t been taken by government to put the legislation in place to put an end to this once and for all. At the end of the day crime is crime and the more police why have all be it military or civil police, working together to combat it the better.

Mark.

Huggy

Hello Boys (particularly Kev and Lee)!

Good to see the Corps men standing up for all us RMP/ex RMP.

I couldn't agree more with your replies and yes... let's have this sorted once and for all and bring RMP fully into the fold.

By the way, is there a reason Human Rights Lawyers don't use lexicons?

As you decided to go public with the question, why will you not go public with the answer, Mr R?

Dear Mr Randall,

as a lawyer I would have thought that you would be able to spell or at least use a spell checker - you fail yourself professionally in that aspect.

To the main subject, yes, this site is for FOI requests and it is doing a good job in doing so however, I fail to see what useful relevance your request is aiming at. In my opinion you are simply clogging the system with a questionable request taking away from those requests which are a benefit to community and society.

As an ex soldier (not RMP) I have had a hate-love relationship with the RMP but could never fault their dealings in any matter I have been unfortunate enough to be involved in.

Currently I work in an NHS ambulance service and have dealings with the RMP and would actually say that they take things a little more seriously than the civilian police, are not heavy handed, are fair and have compassion.

Please find a useful direction for your time and effort Mr Randall as I am sure there are enough human rights issued which are deserving of your attention - this one, sadly, makes you look bitter.

Martin M. Ex RAOC, RLC, AGC

So Mr Randall will not go public with the answer? The concept of 'freedom of information' only goes one way then John? Is that because, as a stated human rights lawyer, there is no pay cheque in it for you?

The simple fact is that the RMP drive their authority to police on mainland UK from, previously, the Army Act 1955, and now the Armed Forces Act 2006. This does not state any territorial limits on any of the three service police forces nor does it restrict their policing activity to any military facility.

The use of blue lights within the RMP is perfectly legal as there is a blanket exemption for "police purposes", at no point in the enabling legislation does it state that it has to be a Home Department police force.

.....................indeed, one has to consider also the MoD police, the British Transport Police..........all of whom travel freely in liveried vehicles. And, all can act as constables if called on to do so by a 'constable' (not defined). So, an assault on a person so called is equal to an assault on a 'constable' and punishable as such. Laws are written to defend the public and the 'peace' so, to look for minor discrepancies that might impede this is rather pointless or rather, it is the route for lawyers looking for loopholes to help them proceed with a not guilty plea and thereby increase their earnings from a case. Cynical? Yes, but born out of 44 years of law enforcement.

I have only recently read this saga and as a retired member of RMP and also Northumbria Police I can only comment that Mr Randell apparently has to much free time on his hands. His queries are quite irrelevant. The RMP is s good as, and in many fields even better than the civil police. The Corps motto, 'Exemplo Ducemus' is ingrained in every member. And if Mr Randell needs a translation maybe he should research his Latin instead of asking pointless questions. Imagine the RMP without blue lights, batons, handcuffs etc. They carry them because they are required and also because they allowed by law.Get a life!

Let me enlighten you! Military Police vehicles, cars, custody Vans a d Motorcycles all have MILITARY POLICE clearly written on them! Maybe you should do your research before spouting rubbish. And regarding the powers; they are applicable at ALL times regardless of location, and the powers are applicable to all serving men and women at any time. Further powers allow RMP to arrest civilians if they are committing an offence of ANY type contrary to civil law or suspected of committing an offence. RMP have the SAME powers in law as Civil Police with some handy additions relating purely to the Forces. Assault, Crim Dam, Sexual Offences, MDA etc need I go on.

Do your googling instead of making crap up!

I have added to this exchange a few times in the past and still I am at a loss to recognise what the problem is here! The livery of RMP is clear and beyond confusion. Plus, all RMP officers have the powers of arrest that all citizens have and these are much wider that many people realise. To generalise, the public can arrest for an 'arrestable offence' if they see it being committed. Police officers have the additional power to arrest someone suspected of having committed an 'arrestable' offence, or for someone who fails to give adequate identification and an address to which a summons can be served. All of this is quite reasonable and built on law that dates back centuries in UK. And, yes, come the day that help is required, none of us care whether it is a civil police officer, a member of Army/RAF/Marines/Naval police, a nurse, a fireman, a bus driver etc. who provides it, it is just a matter of common sense - hence the Common Law on which we depend. The anti-RMP sentiment expressed here is concerning, as is the assumption by some that all police, civil and military, are corrupt. This patently is not true, indeed it is we who catch and prosecute our own when they go off the rails. This is how it must always be.

Now, all I ask of everyone, is to be reasonable and then life for all will be much sweeter. Thank you.

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Sometimes the truth hurts. I understand you prefer to read what pleases you and not what is factual. You selected my posts for removal weeding out your displeasure's from your pleasures and leaving what you consider to be good reading for the forum. I understand your frustration being confronted with facts, it is indeed a shame you are a people pleaser. However you run the forum and not I so it is your privilege. I care little about your thoughts of me indeed it is not my business.