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Note of WNC Learning Exchange
10 June 2008
Those Present:
Joyce Gould (JG) Chair
Anita Gale (AG) Commissioner
Sabin Malik (SM) Commissioner
Ranjana Bell (RB) Commissioner
Bronagh Hinds (BH) Commissioner
Nicola Brewer (NB) Chief Executive, Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)
Sonya Thomas (ST) EHRC
Susan Green (SG) Acting Director, WNC
Daniel Barrow (DB) Deputy Director, WNC
Eleri Butler (EB) Policy Manager, WNC
Leon Bond (LB) Business Manager, WNC
Apologies:
Liz Kelly Commissioner
1. JG opened the Learning Exchange, welcoming RB back to the Board after a short break, and welcomed guests NB and ST to the meeting.
2. NB began her talk to the Board, by setting out EHRC's strategic priorities, its proposals for future work and went on to highlight the wide range of challenges the Commission faced. Particular themes and gaps include the poverty gap, the caring gap, the opportunity gap and the power/inclusion/integration gap. NB stressed the importance of building links with stakeholders, including the WNC, and touched on the work carried out with other organisations, such as with EVAW on `maps of gaps' and plans for monitoring of public bodies under the Gender Equality Duty. NB indicated that the `Map of Gaps' report was not a one-off but an ongoing piece of work, and that government and public bodies have been put on notice to address the gaps in services for women. EHRC has an ongoing role following this up, and has funded an interactive website to highlight services for women in particular areas.
3. NB stressed that two leading aims for the EHRC is to enable citizens to achieve freedom from discrimination, and freedom to release their talent and develop their skills. NB described how the Commission was working with the public sector to change attitudes. NB spoke about the joint TUC/CBI report `Talent not Tokensim' which will help both unions and employers to work together to attain greater equality for all people. The EHRC helpline was receiving the vast majority of queries on employment issues and many of these involved employment problems experienced by pregnant women.
4. NB then touched on the ongoing grant programme for organisations; the current inequalities in the pension system including support for Baroness Hollis' amendment; a number of issues around flexible working; a programme of events around Muslim women and business, and developing the potential of the EHRC to submit Shadow Reports as a human rights institution, as those areas where she saw the EHRC making a real and immediate impact. She recognised it was also important to build on the legacy developed by previous Commissions to support NGOs with template letters, guidance and good practice, for example on work on the gender duty. NB expressed the wish to use the WNC partner networks and working groups to reach out to a wider layer of stakeholders and to develop opportunities for joint work with the WNC on specific projects in future.
AP1: Send copy of `Talent, not Tokenism' to Commissioners.
AP2: Circulate EHRC's CEDAW Shadow Report.
5. JG thanked NB and opened the meeting for questions and comment. A number of issues were raised, and included;
NB had said that the EHRC was supporting Baroness Hollis' amendment to allow older women the chance to buy additional pension years. AG asked what was meant by `support' in this context? Did this mean active research, drafting and briefing, or providing background material only?
AG asked how the EHRC was working with devolved nations, and feeding in to the ongoing devolution process? What were its plans going forward, in terms of tackling issues specific to the nations and regions?
Commissioners asked about EHRC staff composition and expertise in the regions and how they cover and specialise in the range of equality issues, and in particular, how they ensure their staff have and maintain their expertise in gender and women's issues?
Does the EHRC view the use of `gender' as a suitable term, as opposed to `women', in the context of inequality as being an avoidance of the fundamental imbalance between men and women in society? Will the EHRC be using `women' in its future work?
Does the EHRC plan to continue the helpful practice of the EOC, by supplying targeted literature and briefing assistance on request, to groups and individuals, to assist them to campaign against inequality?
SM asked if the EHRC will be tackling the view held by many sections of local government, that women's equality is no more than a legal duty to comply with, in the same way as the race duty has been approached, as opposed to approaching it as a fundamental equality issue for them, both as employers and as representatives of the population.
Given the problems of `glass ceilings' and `sticky floors' for women at work, will the EHRC be championing and publicising individual high profile women as examples of how women can reach senior positions, with particular emphasis within the public sector?
The issue of health and of tackling underlying issues like poverty was often overlooked in terms of equality. Will the EHRC be taking up health as an issue to focus on?
A number of Commissioners raised concerns that employment agencies, which are carrying out an increasing amount of initial recruitment for the public sector, do not follow or are even aware of, their legal obligations. For instance young women are not put forward for interview to a potential employer, if the agency decides that an employer would prefer someone unlikely to require time off for maternity, etc. Commissioners asked NB to take this up as a priority.
How does the EHRC see the issue of 'cohesion'? Does it agree that without the underlying basis of equality and a human rights agenda, building cohesion within society is not possible? Also how does the EHRC position itself amidst conflicting rights around faith, gender and sexuality.
How is the EHRC building links and engaging with all political parties to ensure that the views of all sections of society are legitimately represented? Especially as each party may have differing views on the relative priorities between equality strands, approaches, etc. to those of the Government party.
Why there was a specific EHRC focus on Muslim women and business only, and not other aspects of concern around Muslim women?
How is, and will, the EHRC be using its grants programme to build links within communities and between organisations? Also, why were just 16% of the grants provided in the first round, given to women's groups?
Commissioners were concerned over reports that the EHRC did not have the capacity to exercise its enforcement powers? NB was asked to comment on this and the approach that it would take towards enforcement generally, particularly once the Single Equalities Bill is introduced.
6. NB responded to the questions, apologising that due to a pre-existing appointment she would not have enough time to respond on all of the points raised during the meeting. NB said that the questions on health and employment agencies were very important, and ones that she was grateful had been raised. She would need to respond to these in writing, as they identified areas that she felt the EHRC may need to now look at more closely. On devolution, NB gave examples of the way the EHRC was working to engage the private sector and gain cross-party support for its work, for example, moving from emphasising people's right to freedom from discrimination, to their freedom to access opportunities. EHRC was also working to build in to its decision making, the needs of devolved nations and the regions. The regional network of offices, made up of ex-CRE staff around the country were an example of the EHRC's presence in the regions.
7. NB explained that the recent grants programme had been extremely oversubscribed and while many women's groups had applied, there had been a marked variation in the way bids had been drawn up. Many smaller organisations had not been able to fully bring out the outcomes they were hoping to achieve from their bid, so had not been scored as highly as others. NB explained that this had been mitigated through the checks built in to the process, which ensured that all `protected groups' and geographic areas were covered in the final list. To try to improve the spread of successful bids in the next round of grants, the Commission had set some funds aside for capacity building and assisting groups to draw up effective bids in future.
8. JG again thanked NB for coming to talk to the Board, adding that it had been an extremely useful discussion. JG explained that WNC would write to NB on those remaining issues which NB did not have time to cover, which NB welcomed. It was also agreed that plans for regular meetings between the Commissions needs to be made, and this would be explored between officials.
AP3: Thank you letter to be sent to Nicola Brewer, to include those items that were not addressed in discussion.
AP4: Agree and set up regular meetings between WNC and EHRC colleagues.
9. NB thanked JG and the Board for inviting her and explained that she would be raising the Gender Equality Duty in her discussions with departmental Permanent Secretaries, later that evening.
10. JG closed the meeting, reminding Commissioners to meet later at the House of Lords to continue discussions over dinner.
Note of WNC Board Meeting
11 June 2008
Those Present:
Joyce Gould (JG) Chair
Anita Gale (AG) Commissioner
Ranjana Bell (RB) Commissioner
Bronagh Hinds (BH) Commissioner
Sabin Malik (SM) Commissioner
Liz Kelly (LK) Commissioner
Sally Copley (SC) Director of Policy, Research and Campaigns at YWCA
Susan Green (SG) Acting Director, WNC
Daniel Barrow (DB) Deputy Director, WNC
Leon Bond (LB) Business Manager, WNC
Eleri Butler (EB) Policy Officer, WNC
Agenda Item 1 - Chair's opening remarks and apologies
1. JG opened the meeting, welcoming RB following a break due to ill health. JG reminded Commissioners that this would be the last meeting of the current Board and the October meeting would be the first with the new Commissioners present.
Agenda Item 2 - Review of previous night's discussion
2. JG gave a short review of the previous afternoon's discussion with Nicola Brewer - Chief Executive of the EHRC, adding that while her presentation and responses to questions had outlined a range of issues, some gaps still remained that needed to be followed up. Commissioners had a short discussion to identify further areas and questions not covered. These items are captured in the Learning Exchange minutes and are not repeated here. Commissioners also felt that the relative roles of WNC and the EHRC needed to be clarified with respect to CEDAW. Going forward, it was agreed that regular meetings should be taking place between WNC and EHRC to allow closer working, etc.
AP1: Write to Nicola Brewer raising questions with her and offering to meet regularly with EHRC staff.
3. Commissioners discussed the way in which WNC consults with, and establishes the collective view of, its partners. Commissioners felt unclear on how this collective view could be kept under review, or re-examined as circumstances change without always being tabled for formal consideration at a Board meeting. JG apologised to the Board for the sometimes very tight deadlines on some work circulated to them. However, the timescales for consultations and responses were often not under WNC's control and the views of the Board were always sought via email at the minimum. JG added that a more strategic approach was needed on consulting Partners, which required more time than was possible that day and better handled by an expanded Board in October.
AP2: Place `consultation with partners, and methods for determining their views' on the next meeting's agenda for discussion.
4. Commissioners discussed how the EHRC would tackle any conflicts between the views of faith and belief groups and those working in other equality strands. BH offered to forward a useful report from the Centre for Contemporary Christianity that addressed this issue. JG added that, depending on the nature of the report, it may be useful to invite a speaker to a future meeting. Commissioners also felt that the issue of devolution, raised with Nicola at the Learning Exchange was crucial to both the EHRC and WNC. It was agreed to put this on the agenda for the new Board and to look at inviting both the Scottish and Welsh EHRC Commissioners to speak to the Board.
AP3: Circulate faith and cohesion report from Centre for Contemporary Christianity to Commissioners. If appropriate, consider inviting a speaker to a future Board meeting.
AP4: Place how we work with the devolved nations and English regions, on the October agenda.
AP5: Invite the Scottish and Welsh EHRC Commissioners to a future meeting.
Agenda Item 3 - Minutes of last meeting and Action Points
5. JG introduced the minutes of the last meeting for approval, adding that there was still a need to maintain pressure over the Corston report recommendations.
6. RB drew attention to the number of interesting London-based meetings that the action points log referred to. It was asked whether it was possible to involve the board more in these meetings, as well as in the preparation of any WNC policy papers that these fed into. JG agreed that she would like to see more collective action and involvement from all Commissioners and this was something to take up in the already agreed agenda items for October.
7. Under action point LE3, the definition of Women's Centres was questioned. This was meant to refer to custodial `Women's units', rather than drop-in centres such as the Brighton centre, which JG is patron of. EB informed Commissioners that she had clarified this definition with GEO and the other departments concerned. These custodial units were also expected to offer preventative action.
8. Under AP9 `All Commissioners to consider which areas of their work will require regular publicity and to draft appropriate introductory text for the new website', it was agreed this should be clarified to focus on Commissioners' WNC work, to bring this to the next meeting for a full discussion.
AP6: Add how best to highlight work of WNC Commissioners' on the website, as an agenda item in October.
Agenda Item 4 - Declaration of Interests
9. JG asked Commissioners to check and amend if needed, their current entry in the Register of Interests, a copy of which had been circulated.
Agenda Item 5 - Business Plan for 2008/09 and finance
10. JG introduced the item, adding that after the current meeting, the Business Plan would be effectively finalised and should be considered a standing item for each future meeting. Commissioners should bring their own copy to each meeting for reference and to inform discussion. SG gave a short recap of the different sources for the plan, including the LT review, previous Board decisions, etc. In relation to the `unique selling point' of WNC, Commissioners briefly discussed whether the primary role of WNC was towards Women's organisations or towards individual women. It was agreed that the current wording should remain.
11. JG asked Commissioners to agree the plan on a page by page basis, for any potential problems or concerns, reserving the financial considerations until later in the meeting.
On page 6, JG raised the item of a Commissioners `Awayday'. This was marked as desirable, but it was suggested that this was more of an essential item, if the new Board was to function effectively. It was agreed to move this from desirable to essential in the plan and to amend the bid to GEO accordingly.
On pages 8 and 9, Commissioners discussed the planned 6'O' and BME stakeholder groups. This was an area that Commissioners agreed to return to at a future meeting, as the current approach was unsatisfactory.
On page 10, AG raised regional communications. There was concern that work that had taken place in Wales over recent years was at risk, unless funds were found for Outreach work during 2008/09. JG said discussions were still ongoing with GEO over funding, also that the new Commissioners would need to be adequately supported to undertake work in the regions and devolved nations. BH raised the additional point that the lack of Outreach work was something that Partners were noticing.
On page 13, JG suggested that with 2009 being the WNC's 40th anniversary will be marked with an all-partners conference on 10 July 2009, there was not a need for a `soft relaunch'. BH expressed concern that this clashed with a N. Ireland public holiday, JG replied that unfortunately this was the only date available.
It was proposed that WNC should hold a round table, as part of work around the forthcoming Equalities Bill.
On pages 45 and 46, the Directorate were asked to move the desirable items in orange, to the appropriate sections of the plan.
Commissioners discussed the proposal in the LT Review to spend £20,000 on a consultant to map stakeholders. It was decided that this would not be a good use of WNC funds, given the pressures on its budget.
On page 46, it was agreed to proceed with a survey on widowhood, in conjunction with Margaret Owen. AG suggested also approaching groups such as `Army Wives', who may be Partners. SG agreed to check the Partners database to confirm this.
AP7: WNC to plan and arrange a Commissioners Awayday, to take place outside the planned meetings and if possible during November, at the Lords. Amend the business plan and financial bid accordingly.
AP8: WNC to investigate possibility of Equalities bill round table.
AP9: WNC to rearrange plan to move desirable items on pages 45 and 46 to the appropriate sections.
AP10: WNC to clarify name and status of `Army Wives' group, and include them in the future survey on widowhood.
Agenda Item 7 - Guest from YWCA, Sally Copley
12. JG welcomed SC to the meeting at this point. SC gave a short introduction to the YWCA, its history and the work it is currently engaged with. SC explained that the YWCA worked directly with young women, helping them to `get their life together', but also developed its own policy initiatives. This was an area of work, where SC had taken forward campaigns on `young mums' and reducing teenage pregnancies. Much of the work of YWCA was directly linked to poverty, seeing poverty as having a predominantly `female face' within the UK. Work was also taken forward on education and skills. The apprenticeship review had been fed into, careers days had been organised at the London Olympics site and they were working with the EHRC and others, on another education & skills Bill.
13. YWCA went into schools as part of their work on reducing teenage pregnancies, and said that some schools were also paying YWCA to assist with pupils' transition from primary to secondary education. Commissioners and SC discussed the different areas of young women's life that impacted on attainment and development. There was agreement that a holistic approach to pupils' attainment and development, taken by YWCA, was the right way to go. RB mentioned her experience visiting the Sunbeam project in Chicago.
14. SC said YWCA were planning projects on volunteering and monitoring how the often negative media portrayal of young women affects their self-esteem, and has ongoing effects. EB set out some possible ways that WNC and YWCA could work together on these, including the Equalities Bill and forthcoming Empowerment White Paper.
15. JG summed up the discussion and thanked SC again for coming to talk to Commissioners.
Agenda Item 5 (continued) - Business Plan for 2008/09 and finance
16. SG introduced the 2008/09 budget plan and accompanying narrative that was submitted to GEO. SG explained the background to the `bid', together with an account of the meetings that had taken place so far. No feedback had yet been received from GEO. JG asked if there any further questions on the business plan or finance bid, Commissioners were content at that point.
Agenda Item 6 - Review Recommendations Update
17. DB introduced the paper, showing progress against the LT Review recommendations. Most of the outstanding items were shown to be `on hold', awaiting a response from GEO to the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) that Commissioners approved last year and the accompanying governance paper. JG asked for a list of these items to be drawn up, so that she could raise it with GEO directly if necessary.
AP11: Draw up list of actions for JG from the LT review, that are `on hold' awaiting a GEO response.
Agenda Item 8 - Oral update reports from Chair, Commissioners, Director and staff
18. Shelly Dowrich introduced the CSW section from the tabled work updates paper. JG added that the post-CSW event had been very useful. For future CSWs, NGOs asked for additional information on the process which is already being planned, and consideration of the themes for a side event in 2009.
AP12: Consider theme for CSW side-event in 2009.
19. SM introduced the Migration & Asylum section of the updates paper, adding that Deborah Singer from Asylum Aid had asked for support from WNC on the women's charter. JG added that Deborah Singer had approached WNC to formally endorse the charter. Copies of the charter were available, but an answer was needed before the next working group meeting on the 11th September. Shelly also confirmed that Lin Homer of the UK Border Agency had been invited to the next meeting.
AP13: All Commissioners to reply to Shelly with confirmation or otherwise, that WNC should endorse the charter.
20. LK and EB introduced the VAW update paper. SM drew parallels between women being trafficked for work and being trafficked for sexual violence and exploitation, where crossover between the M&A and VAW groups may need to be looked at.
21. The Equalities Bill was discussed, with a decision to approach Harriet Harman over a possible round table event. LK passed on concerns expressed by the VAW group, that they would be unhappy if useful levers such as Gender Impact Assessments and the Gender Duty were removed. LK asked for the approach to Harriet to be in the name of both `Partners and Commissioners'.
AP14: Approach Harriet Harman via GEO to discuss a round table over the Equalities Bill.
22. The Empowerment White Paper was discussed, and JG suggested that we should ensure WNC inputs to the consultation, once the paper is issued.
AP15: WNC to feed Partners views into the consultation over the Empowerment White Paper.
23. DB reported on Outreach with a further request to Commissioners to become Partners, if they were not already. RB confirmed she would complete a form and send it in.
AP16: Commissioners to complete the necessary paperwork to become Partners, if not already.
24. There was some concern that there were meetings taking place which Commissioners were sometimes not aware of. JG replied that ideally a Commissioner would be present at all meetings, however this was something that would need careful planning, organising and funding to accomplish. BH added that it was difficult for a Commissioner based in N. Ireland or at some distance from London, to engage strongly with WNC work in London, without the accompanying resource level. SG asked for some feedback from Commissioners on the type of meeting they were interested in attending, since a number of the meetings referred to in the work updates were appropriately for officials, or were held at short notice in response to particular emails or events. After discussion, it was considered that this could not be resolved without further discussion and the interests and skills composition of the new Board.
AP17: Commissioners and Directorate to discuss and suggest ways in which the larger Board could play a wider role in day-to-day WNC work.
26. SG and JG gave reports on their recent work as Director and Chair, respectively. JG reported that she would soon be sifting and interviewing for the new Commissioners. AG asked whether GEO would be providing a breakdown of the geographical spread of applicants and JG said that she believed this was planned. SG asked all Commissioners to note that on 14th July there would be a `Women in Public Life' event, with JG and Harriet Harman speaking. As part of this, SM asked for a list of members for the BME stakeholder group.
AP19: GEO to supply statistics on geographical spread of applications for the Board, to Commissioners.
AP20: WNC to send the list of BME stakeholder group members to Commissioners.
Agenda Item 9 - Policy discussions
i) CEDAW
27. JG updated Commissioners on WNC's attendance for the UK's CEDAW examination in New York, stating that that there would be clarity by the end of the week. AG thanked staff for their work in producing a very useful and valuable shadow report. JG agreed, adding that this followed numerous changes and amendments that had been required during the process. JG also referred to the recent burst of letters and discussions that had taken place between NGOs, over elections to the CEDAW Committee. There had been concern raised that the UK was not proposing a UK expert for elections to the Committee. The Government's position was that elections taking place for other UN human rights committees were the more strategic to pursue at this point. While 2010 would be the date for the next set of elections, lobbying was needed now to try to move the issue up the agenda. The Directorate were asked to plan how this could be accomplished.
AP21: Directorate to plan lobbying of the Government over 2010 CEDAW Committee elections.
ii) Women in Public Life
28. Shelly reported on the plans to take forward work on Women in Public Life, with GEO and the Cabinet Office. The pilot project to pass vacancy adverts on to Partners and update the WNC webpage, was planned to `go live' on 29th June. This would be announced formally at the 14th July event. JG asked the Directorate to seek Cabinet Office funding to cover WNC involvement on this.
AP22: Approach Cabinet Office to fund WNC work on Women in Public Life.
29. On the BAME Councillors Taskforce, JG reported that she was planning to meet with its Chair, Baroness Uddin, to discuss any overlap or possible joint working between the Taskforce and WNC.
AP23: WNC to arrange meeting between JG and Baroness Uddin on the work of the BAME Taskforce.
iii) Empowerment White Paper
30. EB introduced the tabled paper, adding that there were concerns that the consultation process at the meeting she attended was not reflected in the outcome as reported. There was a need to decide whether WNC should sign a joint letter with Fawcett Society and Womankind, expressing these concerns. This would be prior to the official white paper being launched, alternatively concern could be raised after the launch as part of the wider consultation. It was agreed that the letter should be signed now, and that the subject would be raised during the wider consultation if necessary.
AP24: EB to email a copy of the draft letter from Fawcett Society and Womankind, to Commissioners.
Agenda Item 10 - AOB
31. The launch of the report on WNCs consultation over the Minister for Women's priorities, was briefly discussed.
32. Feedback was given by Commissioners on the recent WNC newsletter. It was suggested that the length of the newsletter and the general format made it appear more of a document than a regular newsletter. The Directorate were asked to consider any changes that would make it more `news oriented' and accessible to the casual reader.
AP25: WNC to consider redesigning or redrafting future newsletters to give a more `news oriented' format.
34. Brief updates from individual Commissioners were taken at this point. BH gave an account of her work in N. Ireland, including meeting the NI Women's Forum and the Gender Advisory Panel, together with work on VAW and `Making the Grade'. LK then gave the news that Sylvia Walby from Lancaster University had been made the UNESCO Chair of Gender Research. SM gave an account of her work, which ran alongside her role in the National Muslim Women's Advisory Group (NMWAG). RB explained her work in the North East, around the Councillors Commission and taking forward its recommendations at the regional level. She was speaking to the Regional Development Agency to organise a WNC event, which would crossover with work of the NMWAG. SG offered to send an updated core WNC speaking script to any Commissioners that required it.
AP26: Directorate to circulate an updated core WNC speaking script and presentation to all Commissioners.
35. JG reminded Commissioners of the date for the next two meetings, asking the directorate to circulate a proposed date for the February meeting. As this was currently DBs last Board meeting as deputy-director, she gave both hers and the boards thanks for his hard work over the last year. JG then closed the meeting at 14.50.
AP27: Directorate to send out proposed February meeting date to Commissioners for agreement over email.
WNC/08/03/02
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