Note of WNC Learning Exchange

14 October 2008

Joyce Gould (JG) Chair

Anita Gale (AG) Commissioner

Sabin Malik (SM) Commissioner

Bronagh Hinds (BH) Commissioner

Liz Kelly (LK) Commissioner

Ranjana Bell (RB) Commissioner

Mary-Ann Stephenson (MAS) Commissioner

Adele Baumgardt (AB) Commissioner

Beatrix Campbell (BC) Commissioner

Sarah Veale (SV) Commissioner

Ann Henderson (AH) Commissioner

Vivienne Hayes (VH) Commissioner

Juliet Lyon (JL) Commissioner

Helen Jackson (HJ) Commissioner

Barbara-Ann Collins (BAC) Director, WNC

Susan Green (SG) Deputy Director, WNC

Daniel Barrow (DB) Deputy Director, WNC

Katharine McIntosh (KM) Assistant Business Manager, WNC

Maria Eagle (ME) Deputy Minister for Women and Equalities

Helene Reardon-Bond Deputy Director, Government Equalities Office

Jack Feintuck Assistant Private Secretary to Maria Eagle

Sarah Priest Intern

Erin Brooks Intern

Apologies

Brita Fernandez Schmidt Commissioner

Haleh Afshar Commissioner

1. JG opened the Learning Exchange (LE) by welcoming everyone to the meeting, and explained that the meeting tended to be a more informal environment than the main Board Meeting. JG explained that the purpose of the Learning Exchange was for Commissioners to increase their understanding on a relevant policy issue. JG extended a particularly warm welcome to ME as new Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Women and Equalities alongside her role as Parliamentary Under Secretary in the Ministry of Justice, adding that she hoped ME would be able to discuss her work on the Corston report. Apologies were received from Harriet Harman who had been unable to attend at the last moment.

AP1: Contact Harriet Harman's office to invite her to attend the December Board Meeting.

2. JG invited the Commissioners to introduce themselves to the meeting and to the Minister with each saying a few words about their work background.

3. JG invited ME to address the meeting on her work relating to equalities issues, particularly her work on the Corston Report. ME began with a brief background on her career, focusing particularly on her eight years as a Minister, including four as Minister for the Disabled and her role steering the Disability Discrimination Act through Parliament. ME praised the WNC and the high quality of its work and expressed her desire for a positive relationship with WNC. She added that as the WNC was now the only national advisory body on women's issues, she was keen to hear about WNC's priorities. She added that, `Deputy Minister for Women and Equalities' is only half of her ministerial function, and she faces a challenging role coordinating her two workloads. However, she sees synergies between the two roles, such as her responsibility for the implementation of the Corston Report recommendations.

5. ME spoke about the Ministers for Women's Priorities, focusing firstly on women's representation: she discussed the need for women to be part of the decision-making throughout all policy areas, and the challenges resulting from a society where men in senior positions were making decisions about funding. She drew attention to the good work of the BAME Councillors' Taskforce to tackle the under-representation of BME women. ME then referred to the priority addressing violence against women, saying that responsibility for this could not be relegated to the criminal justice system. She added that progress had been made recently activity. ME went on to acknowledge that at a time of economic difficulty, employers look for ways to save money, recognising that working rights may suffer as a result. She emphasised her commitment to ensuring that the Equality Bill will be a central priority in the coming legal session and includes measures to reduce the enduring pay gap.

6. Turning to the Corston Report, ME referred to the 'Re-offending Ministerial Group' which focuses Ministers' and officials' minds on re-offending issues. Progress had been made on 'strip searching', an issue which for vulnerable women had long been problematic. This routine strip searching of offenders is to end, a development that required significant cultural change. ME said that many prison Governors and staff had welcomed this change, as this practice had created barriers between staff and prisoners, and its removal improved relationships. ME added that the paucity of gender-related Prison Service Orders shows how far the prison service needs to change on gender issues. Even the existing two PSOs, including one on Mother and Baby Units, are 'women only', showing the extent to which gender is not seen as a generalised issue. The system is changing and will be audited from April 2009.

7. ME raised Keith Bradley's Review on Public Health, which will report at the end of the year that eight out of ten women in prison have mental health problems. The report is expected to have significant implications for the health service, and their role in caring for women prisoners. This Review will also have implications for the practice of sending women into short-term custody, a practice often resulting in a downward spiral in their mental health, and implications for the NHS and its role in prisons. The gaps that exist in health service provision for women in prison is a difficult problem to resolve, and will involve input from many organisations. Finally, ME drew attention to the success of women's centres, and the funding crisis they face, with current provision ending in April. She added that more Regional Offender Managers must be made aware of this, as it is they who allocate funds and commission services.

8. JG thanked ME for speaking to the meeting and spoke of her personal interest in the subject, telling the meeting of her maiden speech as a peer fifteen years ago, JG had chosen an address on women in prison as her subject, after reading an 80-page report on the prison system in which women were barely mentioned.

9. JL spoke, as a member of Jean Corston's Review team, on the 'law of unintentional consequences' whereby the courts now seemed more comfortable putting women in prison than they had been before the publication of the report. Many women in prison were on remand, and the numbers of women in prison are on the rise. Moreover, approximately 18,000 children are affected, and around a third of probation caseloads are women. She spoke about the alternatives to prison being explored, and the vital necessity of support services for women in prison, some of whom had been trafficked into offending. She voiced her concern that various programmes are being phased-out, adding that provision for community-based prison services must be treated as a key priority. JL suggested a strong focus on how to fulfill the Corston report recommendations, particularly as a dedicated budget to oversee the necessary changes to the penal justice system's treatment of women has not been allocated, contrary to Jean Corston's recommendations.

10. LK agreed that women should be kept out of custody, but added that violence against women needs to be factored into the discussion, using an example of two women who told her that when their prison door was locked, they felt safer than they had ever felt before. She added that this is affected by the issue of commissioning, a critical problem the women's sector is currently facing. VH agreed that losing women-only services would be an incalculable loss, and was an issue that must be resolved. She linked women-only services to women's empowerment, suggesting that we will not alter women's representation unless we look at women's disempowerment. She impressed upon the group the concerted effort needed to achieve change.

12. RB described the surprise she had felt as a prison visitor, over the number of issues to be addressed in relation to women in prison, and in particular, the attitudes towards BME women held by the members of a jury she once served on, where she witnessed prejudice and ignorance about women's needs. BC was struck when reading the Corston Report, how highlighting issues affecting women throws light on issues about masculinity. In highlighting mental/health issues, places of safety, and other similar concerns, the Corston Report underlines many subjects that apply equally to men, as well as women. .

13. AG brought up the lack of women's prisons in Wales, which resulted in Welsh women prisoners inevitably being far away from their families. ME replied that Welsh geography and transport links do not favour the construction of a women's prison in Wales. Currently, women in north and south Wales are well served by prisons just over the border in England. ME gave examples from Bristol where there is a mental health assessment centre and court which helps some Welsh women; and a Cardiff project supported by Ministry of Justice funds, on alternatives to custody.

14. MAS and JG raised the issue of funding, and particularly whether the mainstreaming of women's services is due to financial constraints or policy principals. ME replied that the Government has moved away from ring-fencing of services giving the example of the Ministry of Justice, where money is largely sent to the Regions for them to decide how money should be spent. She added that the policy of devolving spending decisions makes it harder for central Government to commission services, with the result that women's services can drop down the agenda. The only way of protecting women's services would be to return to a system of ring-fencing. VH asked how funding decisions can be made to benefit voluntary sector organisations, particularly an issue when the Government passes money to private sector organisations. ME replied that the focus should be on PSA (Public Service Agreement) targets, those that Local Authorities have agreed with central Government. It is these PSAs where women's issues and services can be targeted. In reply to HJ's question about how outcomes expected from mainstream services might be strengthened, ME added that this is provided for already in the Public Service Duty (PSD), as this already represents a toughening and increase of transparency in the public sector. The PSD enables senior figures to force women onto the agenda.

15. AH briefly told the group that the Scottish administration had abolished ring-fencing. She outlined an ongoing dispute between central government and the wider public sector, particularly Local Authorities, over the issue of contracting out services, and this entailed monitoring processes. She added that issues surrounding Cornton Vale prison has generated much public interest and that there are lessons there worth picking up on.

16. JG then introduced the topic of the Equalities Bill, and the Roundtable that is expected in the New Year. SV spoke on the issue of procurement, emphasising that EU law on commerce cannot be allowed to trump EU law on equalities. She praised the Gender Equality Duty, and voiced concerns over losing it in the Equality Bill, especially if the Bill represents a 'leveling-down' rather than a 'leveling-up' in equality laws. She added that the Sex Discrimination Act is inadequate in its provisions on women in public-facing roles, and her hope that these shortcomings be picked up on in the Equality Bill. She added that she was staggered that thus far, the Equalities Bill has been silent on equal pay, and asserted that robust provisions on equal pay must be included in the Equalities Bill.

17. AB raised her concerns that the Gender Equality Duty provisions do not legally come into force until 2011, with the result that impetus is being lost to the single Equalities Bill. She emphasised that the Bill must incorporate Gender Equality Duty provisions, rather than displacing them. Many conflate the Gender Equality Duty with equal treatment, with the result that positive action budgets are disappearing. A key clause is missing from the Equality Bill - rather than 'dismantling barriers' it should be 'promoting equality' (as this wording will affect how well it is understood). ME agreed that confusion exists about the concepts of discrimination and equality, meaning that the EHRC must work on changing how people develop these mis-conceptions. ME said she would be responsible for holding the EHRC to account, but would be interested to hear views about EHRC's strengths and weaknesses.

18. BC underlined the need to work out the problems encountered with equalities legislation, as by focusing on what we know does not work the way forward can be found. A lack of clarity has resulted in widespread ignorance of what is meant to be changed as well as about enforcement mechanisms. The Equalities Bill must focus on concrete outcomes, and civil society must be empowered through the Bill, or it will be ineffective. MAS and HJ addressed ways the WNC might input into the Bill, suggesting a WNC presence on the Senior Stakeholders Group, and further meetings with Maria Eagle to work on the Bill. HJ added that an equality focus is needed on all legislation in the pipeline; a link between the Equalities Bill and other reforms must be forged. RB addressed the need for the Bill to encompass qualitative as well as quantitative measures. JG suggested further discussion with ME before the Roundtable on the Bill. ME agreed this, adding that WNC would need a briefing before the Roundtable.

AP2: HRB to come back to WNC regarding WNC input to the Senior Stakeholders Group.

AP3: WNC to contact ME about arranging an update/briefing meeting before the Roundtable.

19. JG returned to the need to have an equalities clause written in to all bills, as per the human rights clauses that are already included in all bills. ME agreed, adding that gender-based impact assessments are to be carried out on new legislation. She expressed scepticism over the utility of regulatory impact assessments. AB added that some bills already have quality impact assessments built in, but that assessments performed are often deficient, and do not address gender-related issues. BH voiced her view that civic participation and the consultor-consultee relationship must be central, as evidenced by Northern Ireland experiences. AH added that bills passed in Scotland are already required to contain an equal opportunities statement, with updates a couple of years later. The first of these updates is yet to be reported but will be interesting to examine once the two-year period is up. RB commented that 'conflicting' elements arising in light of impact assessments on multiple discriminations must not be allowed to result in watering down to the lowest common denominator.

20. JG closed the meeting, thanking Maria Eagle for her attendance. ME assured the gathered group that the Minister would be invited to return at a future date.

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